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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To HATE the phrase "lived experience"?

557 replies

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 06:36

Pet peeve incoming:

By definition, experience is lived! You can hardly have an experience without living it, fgs! And what's the opposite of lived experience? An experience that you've had, yet haven't lived? It's complete nonsense. It's used to sound falsely clever when an argument is weak, like "In my personal experience." Well, of course your experience is personal! You would hardly say, "In my neighbour's experience, I find Florida too cold in December."

And it's officially wrong, because it's a tautology. Like "top-floor penthouse."

I don't know whether it's the innate stupidity of the phrase or the fact that it's a linguistic fad that annoys me the most.

"stamps off"

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:53

71% of members of the Medical Journalists Association think the phrase "lived experience" needs to be kicked off a cliff. And remember, most medical journalists are doctors or scientists.

https://mjauk.org/2024/10/02/poll-verdict-lived-experience-is-tautological/#:~:text=It's%20a%20phrase%20that's%20cropping,%2C%20by%20definition%20'lived'.

OP posts:
ARealitycheck · 03/03/2025 11:54

I'm ambivalent towards the phrase. However, on social media I find it is used too often by people with no real support for their claims of some form of discrimination.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:56

ARealitycheck · 03/03/2025 11:54

I'm ambivalent towards the phrase. However, on social media I find it is used too often by people with no real support for their claims of some form of discrimination.

Yeah.

I don't know why I find it so irritating, but I really do. I think I've seen it once too often. It sounds so dumb it makes me want to scream.

OP posts:
AshKeys · 03/03/2025 11:57

Scirocco · 03/03/2025 11:46

Only if they actually have a neurodevelopmental disorder/diagnosis to which the terms 'neurodiversity' and 'neurodivergence' apply. Schizophrenia is categorised elsewhere in diagnostic frameworks. Also, many people with diagnoses of schizophrenia or related conditions find the phrase "a schizophrenic" pejorative and prefer person-first language, ie "I'm a person with schizophrenia".

‘Neurodiversity’ applies to everyone. There is no agreed set of diagnoses to which ‘neurodivergent’ applies and certainly no definition that excludes schizophrenia.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:59

Looks like I'm not the first Mumsnetter to really hate this phrase!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4176958-the-phrase-lived-experience

OP posts:
WhiteLily1 · 03/03/2025 12:07

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 10:40

No, you would not have experience of being depressed. You would have experience of living with someone who is depressed, or experience of caring for someone who is depressed. You would be experienced as a caregiver of someone with depression. But you would not have experience of being depressed if you had never had depression. Same as your husband would not have experience of being a caregiver for a depressed spouse if you had never had depression.

Ok. So the expression ‘lived experience of’ or ‘personal experience of’ clarifys that. Many people would say they had experience of something if they have second hand experience. You don’t seem to acknowledge that second hand experience counts as experience. And that is where your opinion and view differs from the vast majority of the population.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 12:12

The Spectator on the phrase:

A brief history of 'lived experience' | The Spectator

"All experiences are lived, of course, but it seems some experiences are more ‘lived’ than others. Truth has become a moveable feast. This may seem like a contradiction. But this is where we find ourselves.

How you define the notion of truthfulness is yet another signifier of where you stand in the increasingly wearisome culture war. Whether you see the subjectivity of lived experience as a progressive force for good or just another postmodern mash-up will depend on your age and political persuasion.
Those who view experience through the lens of victimhood – mostly the activist young – tend to see objectivity as a tool of oppression. In an article on the Everyday Feminism website entitled 4 Reasons Demanding ‘Objectivity’ in Social Justice Debates Can Be Oppressive, the author even goes so far as to assert that: ‘Objectivity is often a sign of privilege and distance, not expertise.’ Those interested in the facts are simply trying to undermine the voice of the victim and their right to be heard. Your concern with the facts cannot trump my experience of ‘truth’ – or so the logic goes. As such, the truth becomes little more than interpretation.

"‘Lived experience’, however traumatic, has been touted as a form of career currency to put on your CV – just as you would a degree.

"For those who have yet to pass through this strange looking glass, the denial of empirical evidence as a foundation of truth telling can feel deeply demoralising and quite frightening, especially when any ‘victim’ can speak their ‘truth’ with all manner of consequences for those who are implicated in it. Abandon objective truth and what’s left other than a lot of shouting into the void? The consequences for civil society are immense. When vice-president Kamala Harris revealed that she had promised Joe Biden that she would always share with him her ‘lived experience, as it relates to any issue that we confront’, the implication was that her truth should override any inconvenient reality. Chilling doesn’t even come close.

"So how did we arrive at the belief that the subjective experience of certain people exists in a realm that is beyond doubt?

"The term ‘lived experience’, translated from the German Erlebnis, can be traced back to The Second Sex by the French existentialist Simone de Beauvoir, a seminal work of second-wave feminism. De Beauvoir argued that in order to answer the question ‘what is a woman?’ one had to dig much deeper than mere biological characteristics. Women were constrained by patriarchal social structures that were hard to quantify in purely objective terms. As the ‘consciousness-raising’ 1969 feminist Redstocking Manifesto put it: ‘We regard our personal experiences and feelings about experience as the basis for an analysis of our common situation … Our chief task is to develop female class consciousness through sharing experience and publicly exposing the sexist foundation of all our situations.’
The term, then, is rooted in feminist scholarship, which is why it has become such a talking point around issues of male violence. The murder of Sarah Everard caused understandable outrage but it was remarkable how quickly women’s anger shifted away from the actual perpetrator to the broader issue of women’s lived experience of male abuse. It was as if an abhorrent but isolated incident of abduction and murder had become part of the female ‘narrative’.
Shifting the focus onto women’s lived experiences may appear to address the broader issue of male dysfunction but it can easily escalate into tribalism where violence is seen as innate to all men and must be reined in by strict curfews and re-education programmes.
The wording of this recent £50,000 per annum job advertisement for Head of Lived Experience at the mental health charity Mind even transforms the term into a professional attribute: ‘Candidates for this role will have a personal direct experience of mental health problems with substantial experience of integrating this experience into your day-to-day work to inform your values, communications and approach to lived experience and community leadership.’ Here, ‘lived experience’, however traumatic, is touted as a form of career currency to put on your CV – just as you would a degree.
Meanwhile many on the left are refusing to accept the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities’ report which found that the UK is not institutionally racist. Sidiq Khan casually dismissed 264 pages of clearly worded, substantiated evidence, tweeting: ‘We need to acknowledge and listen to the lived experience of Black, Asian and minority ethnic people in our country, so we can take meaningful action to break down barriers and make our society more equal for everyone.’
An indignant Diane Abbott told Sky News: ‘This is people’s lived experience and it is as if this commission, which was set up by the Tories and by leading Tory advisers who don’t believe in institutional racism at all, is taking us back in the argument for racial justice, not taking us forward.’ In other words the report must have been falsified because the evidence simply didn’t compute with Diane’s rigidly constructed narrative that sees all BAME individuals as victims. How dare the report violate her ‘truth’.
This rush to delegitimise our shared humanity has spread to the creative world where authors are criticised for daring to imagine a life that isn’t their own and on matters of race where nobody can comment on issues affecting those of a different race because of a lack of ‘lived experience’. And it was ultimately what made Oprah Winfrey’s interview with Meghan Markle so one-sided. Oprah’s unspoken view seemed to be that the Duchess’s word was final and should not be questioned.
Having unshackled ourselves from our heritage of empiricism, we seem to be drifting away from the ancient Greek notion of thesis and antithesis where conflicting ideas were deliberately held up against each other. Now, the only required response when someone decides to share their ‘truth’ is to sit in silence and listen."

OP posts:
mikado1 · 03/03/2025 12:12

I actually understand you OP with regard to some of the examples people are giving eg working with and being the service user, obviously are different experiences rather than experience and lived experience.
In my experience (!) this is a phrase used in therapy (also felt experience) which distinguishes between my experience of something being specific to me, whereas you might go through the same thing and have had a different experience of it. We both then have experience of eg domestic abuse, but our lived experiences are individual to us. Does that help with your head wreck at all?! Clearly my lived experience of hearing the phrase used is different to yours 😉

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 12:17

WhiteLily1 · 03/03/2025 12:07

Ok. So the expression ‘lived experience of’ or ‘personal experience of’ clarifys that. Many people would say they had experience of something if they have second hand experience. You don’t seem to acknowledge that second hand experience counts as experience. And that is where your opinion and view differs from the vast majority of the population.

If you said that you had experience of depression, most people would think you had had depression.

If you said that you had experience of caring for someone with depression, you would be both accurate and easily understood.

If you said you had second-hand experience of depression, you would need to clarify what you meant, since it's not possible to experience depression second-hand.

I cared for both my parents during their three long cancer journeys between them. It would be totally inaccurate to say that I have second-hand experience of cancer. I have no idea what it feels like to get those diagnoses or have those treatments. What I have experienced is being a cancer caregiver.

OP posts:
Porcuporpoise · 03/03/2025 12:18

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 12:12

The Spectator on the phrase:

A brief history of 'lived experience' | The Spectator

"All experiences are lived, of course, but it seems some experiences are more ‘lived’ than others. Truth has become a moveable feast. This may seem like a contradiction. But this is where we find ourselves.

How you define the notion of truthfulness is yet another signifier of where you stand in the increasingly wearisome culture war. Whether you see the subjectivity of lived experience as a progressive force for good or just another postmodern mash-up will depend on your age and political persuasion.
Those who view experience through the lens of victimhood – mostly the activist young – tend to see objectivity as a tool of oppression. In an article on the Everyday Feminism website entitled 4 Reasons Demanding ‘Objectivity’ in Social Justice Debates Can Be Oppressive, the author even goes so far as to assert that: ‘Objectivity is often a sign of privilege and distance, not expertise.’ Those interested in the facts are simply trying to undermine the voice of the victim and their right to be heard. Your concern with the facts cannot trump my experience of ‘truth’ – or so the logic goes. As such, the truth becomes little more than interpretation.

"‘Lived experience’, however traumatic, has been touted as a form of career currency to put on your CV – just as you would a degree.

"For those who have yet to pass through this strange looking glass, the denial of empirical evidence as a foundation of truth telling can feel deeply demoralising and quite frightening, especially when any ‘victim’ can speak their ‘truth’ with all manner of consequences for those who are implicated in it. Abandon objective truth and what’s left other than a lot of shouting into the void? The consequences for civil society are immense. When vice-president Kamala Harris revealed that she had promised Joe Biden that she would always share with him her ‘lived experience, as it relates to any issue that we confront’, the implication was that her truth should override any inconvenient reality. Chilling doesn’t even come close.

"So how did we arrive at the belief that the subjective experience of certain people exists in a realm that is beyond doubt?

"The term ‘lived experience’, translated from the German Erlebnis, can be traced back to The Second Sex by the French existentialist Simone de Beauvoir, a seminal work of second-wave feminism. De Beauvoir argued that in order to answer the question ‘what is a woman?’ one had to dig much deeper than mere biological characteristics. Women were constrained by patriarchal social structures that were hard to quantify in purely objective terms. As the ‘consciousness-raising’ 1969 feminist Redstocking Manifesto put it: ‘We regard our personal experiences and feelings about experience as the basis for an analysis of our common situation … Our chief task is to develop female class consciousness through sharing experience and publicly exposing the sexist foundation of all our situations.’
The term, then, is rooted in feminist scholarship, which is why it has become such a talking point around issues of male violence. The murder of Sarah Everard caused understandable outrage but it was remarkable how quickly women’s anger shifted away from the actual perpetrator to the broader issue of women’s lived experience of male abuse. It was as if an abhorrent but isolated incident of abduction and murder had become part of the female ‘narrative’.
Shifting the focus onto women’s lived experiences may appear to address the broader issue of male dysfunction but it can easily escalate into tribalism where violence is seen as innate to all men and must be reined in by strict curfews and re-education programmes.
The wording of this recent £50,000 per annum job advertisement for Head of Lived Experience at the mental health charity Mind even transforms the term into a professional attribute: ‘Candidates for this role will have a personal direct experience of mental health problems with substantial experience of integrating this experience into your day-to-day work to inform your values, communications and approach to lived experience and community leadership.’ Here, ‘lived experience’, however traumatic, is touted as a form of career currency to put on your CV – just as you would a degree.
Meanwhile many on the left are refusing to accept the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities’ report which found that the UK is not institutionally racist. Sidiq Khan casually dismissed 264 pages of clearly worded, substantiated evidence, tweeting: ‘We need to acknowledge and listen to the lived experience of Black, Asian and minority ethnic people in our country, so we can take meaningful action to break down barriers and make our society more equal for everyone.’
An indignant Diane Abbott told Sky News: ‘This is people’s lived experience and it is as if this commission, which was set up by the Tories and by leading Tory advisers who don’t believe in institutional racism at all, is taking us back in the argument for racial justice, not taking us forward.’ In other words the report must have been falsified because the evidence simply didn’t compute with Diane’s rigidly constructed narrative that sees all BAME individuals as victims. How dare the report violate her ‘truth’.
This rush to delegitimise our shared humanity has spread to the creative world where authors are criticised for daring to imagine a life that isn’t their own and on matters of race where nobody can comment on issues affecting those of a different race because of a lack of ‘lived experience’. And it was ultimately what made Oprah Winfrey’s interview with Meghan Markle so one-sided. Oprah’s unspoken view seemed to be that the Duchess’s word was final and should not be questioned.
Having unshackled ourselves from our heritage of empiricism, we seem to be drifting away from the ancient Greek notion of thesis and antithesis where conflicting ideas were deliberately held up against each other. Now, the only required response when someone decides to share their ‘truth’ is to sit in silence and listen."

Yeah. And so?

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 12:19

mikado1 · 03/03/2025 12:12

I actually understand you OP with regard to some of the examples people are giving eg working with and being the service user, obviously are different experiences rather than experience and lived experience.
In my experience (!) this is a phrase used in therapy (also felt experience) which distinguishes between my experience of something being specific to me, whereas you might go through the same thing and have had a different experience of it. We both then have experience of eg domestic abuse, but our lived experiences are individual to us. Does that help with your head wreck at all?! Clearly my lived experience of hearing the phrase used is different to yours 😉

FELT EXPERIENCE???

Oh my fuck, I need a cup of tea.

OP posts:
Cunningfungus · 03/03/2025 12:19

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 10:23

You think that making a list of suggested alternatives is authoritatively telling people what these roles should be called? What people? How authoritative is a list of suggestions?

Go back to bed!

lol - again - why are such suggestions needed? Don’t you think the folks involved already know what they are talking about? 🤦‍♀️ at your arrogance.

StrawberrySquash · 03/03/2025 12:20

It's a phrase that does tend to raise my heckles a bit. Not because it's a tautology; I don't think it is for the reasons others have said. And absolutely having personal experience of something is a valid reason to listen to someone. You often don't really understand something until you've been there.

But people often use it as a rhetorical weapon and that's what I don't like.
e.g. a lot of people will say you don't understand the exhaustion of being a new parent until it actually happens to you. That's all fair. But then what if I have a really easy baby and I say it's not that bad. You disagree and I flounce about how you are 'denying my lived experience'.

Individual lived experience is just that - individual. It doesn't tell us about overall patterns. Sometimes people want us to validate their lived experience only when actually it's only their experience. And they use that experience to avoid having a reasoned discussion about something.

Arraminta · 03/03/2025 12:25

Yep, it's just worthy, overly earnest WordSoup nonsense.

See also 'Use your words' (otherwise known as, you know, 'speaking'). And, 'My truth' (usually accompanied by earnestly pressing your palm to the middle of your chest).

Please do fuck off.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 12:32

Cunningfungus · 03/03/2025 12:19

lol - again - why are such suggestions needed? Don’t you think the folks involved already know what they are talking about? 🤦‍♀️ at your arrogance.

I suggested alternatives for consideration which are, in my opinion, clearer and stronger language. Is all editing arrogance, then? 🤦‍♀️ at your ignorance of the purpose of editing.

"Lived Experience" sounds unimpressive because it unnecessarily doubles up. Qualifying a word that needs no qualification with another word weakens its point.

OP posts:
mikado1 · 03/03/2025 12:36

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 12:19

FELT EXPERIENCE???

Oh my fuck, I need a cup of tea.

Lol
It's a bit like triggered isn't it? Originally therapy speak but now overused in everyday life, asking everyday experiences overly dramatic.
Felt experience is because many people in therapy will dissociate so not everyone will have a felt experience and it distinguishes.

RamblingEclectic · 03/03/2025 12:50

It seems an unreasonable waste of energy to put hate onto a phrase.

It's been around far longer than a few decades. The phrase comes into English by the way of German and French philosophers, so it may not be what some see as ideal English because it comes through translation. It developed originally to divide academic understanding, which in some fields is described as experience, but isn't one many would say is a lived one, from understanding the world by actual lived experience. Different philosophical branches prioritise different types of understanding, with swings in popularity of them.

There has been debates on which one brings better understanding going back many centuries. Some early Vedic and Buddhist writings dig into these topics. It's why some traditional religious practices focus on studying scriptures and sutras - what we can call the academic understanding - and some focus on direct lived experiences, with many trying to combine the two to different degrees.

It more recently moved as many have said to divide professional understanding from the understanding of actual lived experience, in part because there is growing understanding of the needs to have both to develop, improve, and maintain social systems.

Cunningfungus · 03/03/2025 12:52

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 12:32

I suggested alternatives for consideration which are, in my opinion, clearer and stronger language. Is all editing arrogance, then? 🤦‍♀️ at your ignorance of the purpose of editing.

"Lived Experience" sounds unimpressive because it unnecessarily doubles up. Qualifying a word that needs no qualification with another word weakens its point.

Again….your opinion which frankly means nothing. And you might want to look up the meaning of the word “editing” as you clearly don’t understand that either.

Cunningfungus · 03/03/2025 12:55

RamblingEclectic · 03/03/2025 12:50

It seems an unreasonable waste of energy to put hate onto a phrase.

It's been around far longer than a few decades. The phrase comes into English by the way of German and French philosophers, so it may not be what some see as ideal English because it comes through translation. It developed originally to divide academic understanding, which in some fields is described as experience, but isn't one many would say is a lived one, from understanding the world by actual lived experience. Different philosophical branches prioritise different types of understanding, with swings in popularity of them.

There has been debates on which one brings better understanding going back many centuries. Some early Vedic and Buddhist writings dig into these topics. It's why some traditional religious practices focus on studying scriptures and sutras - what we can call the academic understanding - and some focus on direct lived experiences, with many trying to combine the two to different degrees.

It more recently moved as many have said to divide professional understanding from the understanding of actual lived experience, in part because there is growing understanding of the needs to have both to develop, improve, and maintain social systems.

@RamblingEclectic - thank you for contributing some meaningful discussion to the thread. Sadly I think it will be wasted on the OP who is determined that her/his opinion is correct and all others are just plain wrong.

Katbum · 03/03/2025 13:00

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:46

Come to think of it, I actually disagree with social work being an academic subject. Social work is a field job. Yes, there should obviously be training on how to deal with people who have x, y, or z issue, but I disagree with the way that social work has been made into an academic subject. It's a vocation. I had the misfortune to edit a master's social-work textbook once. It was for an American course. I've never seen such a load of incomprehensible twaddle.

Social work is - or should be - a vocational role that's mainly people based. Social workers should be out in the community, talking to people in need and getting services for them. For some unknown reason, in the last twenty years it's been made into a faux-academic subject. I'll always remember how awful that textbook was. There was no practical training in it at all.

This is a stupid comment because the whole discipline of social work as a specific profession tied to the Welfare State in the UK comes out of a very specific academic context, which was the LSE, specifically Richard Titmuss's establishment of Social Administration. Most of the pioneering practitioners of social work, women like Pearl Jephcott, came up through academic work. So I think you are, again, talking out your ar*e about something you don't fully understand.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 13:14

Katbum · 03/03/2025 13:00

This is a stupid comment because the whole discipline of social work as a specific profession tied to the Welfare State in the UK comes out of a very specific academic context, which was the LSE, specifically Richard Titmuss's establishment of Social Administration. Most of the pioneering practitioners of social work, women like Pearl Jephcott, came up through academic work. So I think you are, again, talking out your ar*e about something you don't fully understand.

Social work is about helping members of the public who need help. Those people are out there in their homes or specialised facilities. How do people in an ivory tower studying a made-up subject help those people? Shouldn't they be visiting people at home and liaising with the right people to get them assessments and services? How does creating a faux-academic subject help people in need? Social work is a vocation, not a discipline.

OP posts:
Katbum · 03/03/2025 13:26

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 13:14

Social work is about helping members of the public who need help. Those people are out there in their homes or specialised facilities. How do people in an ivory tower studying a made-up subject help those people? Shouldn't they be visiting people at home and liaising with the right people to get them assessments and services? How does creating a faux-academic subject help people in need? Social work is a vocation, not a discipline.

As I just explained, social work as a vocational discipline (a recognised profession) is also tied to the establishment of the discipline of social administration at the LSE. It isn't just randoms wandering around offering help, it is tied into a whole ideology and infastructure, which has its roots in the welfare state and is also deeply connected to wider social policy and political machinations, like funding. All these things are bound into academia because they come out of a whole school of research into society and culture in the 20th century which made the case for certain social provisions and designed systems to implement them (many of these are lasting, and they continue to change based on research).

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 13:26

Cunningfungus · 03/03/2025 12:52

Again….your opinion which frankly means nothing. And you might want to look up the meaning of the word “editing” as you clearly don’t understand that either.

Oh, I don't understand editing? At least I understand why a tautology is bad writing and incorrect grammar, which you don't understand at all.

OP posts:
ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 13:33

Katbum · 03/03/2025 13:26

As I just explained, social work as a vocational discipline (a recognised profession) is also tied to the establishment of the discipline of social administration at the LSE. It isn't just randoms wandering around offering help, it is tied into a whole ideology and infastructure, which has its roots in the welfare state and is also deeply connected to wider social policy and political machinations, like funding. All these things are bound into academia because they come out of a whole school of research into society and culture in the 20th century which made the case for certain social provisions and designed systems to implement them (many of these are lasting, and they continue to change based on research).

Yes, I didn't think it was randoms wandering around offering help, As I said in a previous post, I know there has to be training, of course.

But social work is a job, it's not an academic subject. You mention ideology...I'm sorry, but why is ideology anywhere near social work? It sounds as if people are categorised and put into idealogical boxes instead of treated as individuals.

It makes sense that social work "has its roots in the welfare state and is also deeply connected to wider social policy and political machinations, like funding." But why did there need to be academic research to make it obvious that society had needs for social care? Shouldn't that have been blindingly obvious? Why did there need to be a whole academic discipline created in order for society to realise that some people need help with housing and food?

OP posts:
Youcalyptus · 03/03/2025 13:36

LameBorzoi · 03/03/2025 09:05

As someone who has worked in teams that work with vulnerable populations, the addition of a team member with lived experience is invaluable.

Exactly, right? People getting their knickers in a twist because they don't understand about the value of qualitative data, or of diverse opinions, and scared that they might have to consider their assumptions about expertise.