Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Konstantin Kristin's take on the Zelensky /Trump press conference

359 replies

BusyExpert · 01/03/2025 17:10

Konstantin Kristin who is much more knowledgable about events in Ukraine has posted this on his substack. I repeat it here to see if has any effect on the uninformed hysteria being spouted.He explains far better than I could why Zelensky blew it. His ego got in the way and he failed to put it his country before his own ego which was not, as has been the norm from world leaders, been massaged.

Kristin says
"Before we address the in the Oval Office yesterday, a bunch of disclaimers are sadly necessary. Such are the times we live in.
If you are unfamiliar with my work, when Vladimir Putin’s troops invaded Ukraine in 2022, I went on one of the in Britain to express my shame for what Russia was doing and to call on our leaders to support Volodymyr Zelensky in defence of his country. In the weeks that followed, I gave interview after interview and participated in endless debates about our involvement in Ukraine. On TRIGGERnometry, we raised the best part of $100,000 in two hours for Ukrainian charities. My wife and I have sent supplies, clothing and our own money to friends, family and strangers in Ukraine to help them deal with the brutality of war and Russia’s deliberate targeting of Ukraine’s energy systems. Only last week, I described Trump’s labelling of Zelensky as a “dictator” as “absurd”. I can hardly be accused of being a Putin shill. Indeed, my feelings on the subject are so strong that when I saw a short clip of JD Vance and Donald Trump lambasting Volodymyr Zelensky in front of TV cameras last night, like most people, I assumed that this was yet another example of President Trump strong-arming Ukraine into accepting a rushed and unfavourable ceasefire with Russia. To my embarrassment, I tweeted as much.

Having complained only last week of journalists clipping my words out of context, I fell victim to the same trick myself. When I later watched the full 50-minute press conference, it became clear that President Trump had actually done his best to do a deal, and that it was President Zelensky who scuppered it through an ill-advised spat with JD Vance. This gave the Vice President justification to unleash a barrage of anti-Ukraine MAGA talking points he had clearly been waiting to deploy. As if this wasn’t enough, Zelensky then proceeded to mutter an insult under his breath, interrupt and argue with Trump himself, which led to the deal offer being withdrawn and Zelensky being sent to his room without his supper.

So, why did this happen and how can peace be salvaged? To understand why Zelensky acted the way he did, you have to consider the reality he has been operating in:

For the last 3 years, he has led his country in a heroic defence against a brutal and barbaric invasion. He saw innocent Ukrainian civilians being slaughtered, tortured and raped. He watched missiles and drones rain down on his towns and cities. He welcomed Ukrainian POWs on their return from Russian prisons and torture camps, only to discover they were emaciated, bruised and broken. He has spoken with Ukrainian parents whose childrenhave been stolen and taken to Russia.

During the same time period, he has received in every room he has entered. In Europe, across the political spectrum, Ukraine’s cause is seen as just, righteous and important for our collective safety. Foreign leaders have travelled to Kiev for photo ops with him. He has spoken in every major parliament in the world. Praise and attention have been lavished on him from every direction. At every turn, he has been told “we stand with Ukraine”, “Slava Ukraine” and so on.
This is one of the reasons his negotiating position appears somewhat disconnected from reality. During the press conference he argued that Russia must pay for the war on the basis that in history “whoever starts the war, pays”. What he appears to be missing is that this isn’t remotely true: in history, whoever wins makes the losing side pay. While neither side has defeated the other, Ukraine can hardly claim victory.
For all these reasons, the reality vortex he entered in the Oval Office yesterday would have been a shock. The fact is that MAGA, the dominant force in the world’s leading nation, does not share the European view of President Zelensky. You may agree or disagree, but to the current occupants of the White House, their advisors and their base, President Zelensky - and forgive me for putting this bluntly- is an untrustworthy leader of a corrupt country on the other side of the world who keeps asking for more money America doesn’t have to fight a war they neither care about nor feel he can win. Most of these perceptions stem primarily from domestic American politics and the hatred MAGA has for anyone and anything President Biden touched. Most Americans don’t know where Ukraine is and have no reason to care. To them, this is just another “forever war” like Iraq and Afghanistan.
Share

In other words, President Zelensky walked into a room in which people who don’t particularly like him, don’t particularly trust him, and don’t particularly care about his “just and righteous cause” were nevertheless prepared to continue giving him money, weapons and political support in order to make this problem go away. All he had to do was look grateful. When you are attempting to convert other people’s good will into hard currency, that is the bare minimum. And for 40 minutes, Zelensky just about managed.

The rationale for the argument he then instigated with JD Vance is not without merit. As I explained in my last video, Zelensky’s primary concern has to be what are known as “security guarantees” - this is a fancy way of saying that Putin is a proven liar who can’t be trusted to stick to any agreement reached. Therefore, the only way to prevent another invasion is through a permanent presence of European or American troops in between Russia and Ukraine. He kept making this point over and over during the press conference and did so diplomatically enough.

But the way he challenged Vance directly in front of the cameras was catastrophically stupid. Sure, if you hate Trump and Vance and think they’re taking part in a Youtube debate, then Zelensky made a valid point. But this was not a debate. They’re all supposed to be on the same side. And the person who has the most to lose from them not feeling like they’re all on the same side is President Zelensky, or, more importantly, his nation. The arguments about security guarantees should have been made with tact, diplomacy, and in private.

To make things worse, he followed this unfortunate error with another, much bigger one. In Europe, Zelensky is used to winning people over to his cause by claiming that Ukraine is all that stands between them and Vladimir Putin. We can argue about whether such claims are true, but the important thing is that in Europe we are much more receptive to this message for both cultural and pragmatic reasons. We are on the same continent as Russia and NATO’s eastern border is now in contact with Russia. This point of contact would have been significantly extended had Ukraine been overrun.

These arguments don’t wash in America and what’s worse, Americans HATE people painting a negative picture of their society’s future. This is why, I believe, President Trump interrupted Zelensky when he claimed that America won’t be protected from Putin by an ocean and shut him down.

None of this is to suggest that Vance or Trump behaved perfectly. But they aren’t the ones asking for more money, weapons, and diplomatic support. Their job is to look generous and find a route to peace. Zelensky’s job is to realise that he stopped being a human being when he became President of a country reliant on foreign aid to survive. He does not have the luxury of righteousness and his country cannot afford to have him lose control of his senses as he did."

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
EasternStandard · 02/03/2025 11:05

@kattaduck Ukraine give US a reason to stay in, without it and that goes down.

Rutte knows this and I expect will be straightforward with European leaders today.

In EU stepping in and offering security, where did you read they had done this?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 02/03/2025 11:08

Trump didn't want to give the security Zelensky needed. Seems Europe is willing to do that

I honestly doubt it, @kattaduck
Once again Yes Prime Minister suggests the likely approach of the EU, with the "four stage strategy":

Pootlemcsmootle · 02/03/2025 11:08

Wordau · 02/03/2025 11:04

I have to agree with this as much as it pains me.

All the leaders simpering around Trump makes me feel queasy.

But he's a volatile manchild and you have to play the game.

Zelenskyy - understandably - didn't want to, but it's not turned out well for him. He was told by advisors beforehand to play nice and not make it about the security guarantee. Who knows if Trump would have fucked him over on that - maybe. I mean he called him a dictator last week then denied it a few days later.

Trump and his supporters will love it as it looks like a moment of American strength against a man whose accent sounds a bit like the baddies in action movies.

You also don't kowtow to a bully though. Here's the reality: Trump is a Putin shill, and Putin invaded Ukraine with no provocation. Putin needs to just stop the invasion. He's the aggressor, he's the bully, he has complete power to withdraw. Thus is he only way this stops.

Ukraine didn't start a war with Russia, they're being invaded. This is not ear it is an invasion.

The only aggressor here is Putin and Trump is on his payroll. This isn't a normal democratic situation at all. This isn't a war declared on both sides. Ukraine didn't ask for war, they are being invaded. There isn't a war to stop. There is a one sided invasion that the invading aggressor needs to stop. Nothing else will work. End of story.

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 11:09

MikeRafone · 02/03/2025 11:00

Putin could not even defeat Ukraine. I presume he would eventually, but God knows in How many years, and the cost to Russia would be huge.

So Russia isn't as strong as they thought, has not won the war easily

I just don’t think Putin would then start invading other countries. His military is clearly not up to it. He may not have realised this when he invaded Ukraine, but he will now.

Russia has now realised they are not insect good shape for war

The best way to end this, the only way, is to give him a way out.
I’m not sure what you think ‘stopping Russia’ means other than this?

No one wants WW3 with Russia.

Yet Russia isn't as strong as they thought, they haven't won this war they started - obviously no one wants WW3 but Russia isn't likely to be as much a threat according to your previous statements?

My goodness!

No o e wants a war with them as (a) any war is costly in money, people snd political popularity, and (b) China may wade in and (c) they have nuclear weapons. Are you seriously saying other countries should go to war with Russia after all? They are just aren’t going to do that!

Russia can keep on attacking Ukraine. So we either leave them to it and Ukraine will eventually be defeated, or we find a way out that avoids a defeat and lets Putin exit on terms he finds agreeable.

What other solution is there?

kattaduck · 02/03/2025 11:11

UnGattino · 02/03/2025 10:53

Mandy Rice-Davies didn’t say that, you’ve misquoted her. What she actually said in court was, "Well he would, wouldn't he?"

Another thing then you got wrong is accusing Kisin of being right wing: If you knew anything about him and were familiar with his book then you’d know that he’s a liberal.

But anyone that doesn’t agree with me is right wing these days, right.

Well he calls himself right wing so there's that.
Not that there is anything wrong with being right wing per se.

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 11:11

Pootlemcsmootle · 02/03/2025 10:56

Oh please, he and Vance were bloody embarrassing. It was a clown show. Zelensky is a President. A world leader. You don't shit all over another foreign dignitary.

Plus Russia invaded Ukraine. You want Zelensky to beg for Russia to stop invading them? No way. Zelensky has done nothing but protect his people. He has self respect so he isn't going to bow like the pathetic shills in the GOP bow to their new King.

Here's how the war ends: Russia the invader stops invading and dropping bombs on a country that showed them nothing but peace. That's it.

Fantastic idea. You tell Putin that’s how it’s going to be and I’ m sure he’ll agree 🙄

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:12

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 11:02

All you have said is what you want.

That is not the same as what is acheivable

Wishes aren’t reality.

It is all a balance. Offer terms, yes.
US with Trump pandering in this way to Putin, nope thanks. He has attacked Zelensky, openly. And Europe, repeteadly. But keeps praising Putin. To the hell with that.
This is not what is going to secure Europe and Ukraine.
Europe will have to regroup and get the solution that is acceptable to Europe. Because it is us who is closer to the crazy Putin and at a higher threat.

EasternStandard · 02/03/2025 11:12

The whole point of Macron and Starmer was to ask for the security.

It's been a no three times now including Z plus the backlash.

If Europe were going to offer they would have already. But if it has been perhaps someone has read up on it and say where they saw it.

As for pp on Captain Tom the whole SM element is concerning. Which is why I'm glad NATO won't care for sound bites, polling, optics etc

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 11:12

kattaduck · 02/03/2025 11:11

Well he calls himself right wing so there's that.
Not that there is anything wrong with being right wing per se.

Where did he say that? I’ve seen an entire video where he talks about people calling him right wing but he’s not.

EasternStandard · 02/03/2025 11:14

@MushMonster I don't think we have the military stock, that's the problem

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:15

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 11:12

Where did he say that? I’ve seen an entire video where he talks about people calling him right wing but he’s not.

We have been arming Ukraine with a fraction of our stock.

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:16

EasternStandard · 02/03/2025 11:14

@MushMonster I don't think we have the military stock, that's the problem

Wrong post quoted, I meant to quote this one, sorry.

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 11:17

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:12

It is all a balance. Offer terms, yes.
US with Trump pandering in this way to Putin, nope thanks. He has attacked Zelensky, openly. And Europe, repeteadly. But keeps praising Putin. To the hell with that.
This is not what is going to secure Europe and Ukraine.
Europe will have to regroup and get the solution that is acceptable to Europe. Because it is us who is closer to the crazy Putin and at a higher threat.

How do you expect there to be an end without it being one that Putin will agree to?

The goal is to avoid this being a war that drags on and ends in defeat ( as Ukraine will eventually lose if things go down that route). The only way to end this war without Ukraine being defeated is for Putin to be offered terms he finds agreeable.

I hate that being the case but I don’t see what the alternative is?

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 11:18

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:15

We have been arming Ukraine with a fraction of our stock.

?? You appear to be answering another question?

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:19

Yes, but why does US need to back up Putin in this way? Don't you get that Trump looks fully into Putin's side here?

YourAmplePlumPoster · 02/03/2025 11:19

Read up on your history. The US has never wanted to get embroiled in European wars. They only belatedly came into WW1 and WW2 because they were attacked. President Wilson told the Europeans to get their act together after WW1 so it couldn't happen again but it did. Since then, as Trump rightly says, none of them have paid their fair share towards their own defence. We've been living off their largesse, only just recently paying off their war loans to us. The post war welfare state Labour like to claim as theirs was actually funded by US money and loans.

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:19

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 11:18

?? You appear to be answering another question?

Yes, sorry, quoted the wrong post.

kattaduck · 02/03/2025 11:20

EasternStandard · 02/03/2025 11:05

@kattaduck Ukraine give US a reason to stay in, without it and that goes down.

Rutte knows this and I expect will be straightforward with European leaders today.

In EU stepping in and offering security, where did you read they had done this?

If Ukraine a non NATO country is the only reason US stays in NATO, then it's clearly dead. It has always been a Defence Alliance and the only time Art. 5 has been triggered was by the US. They seem to have forgotten though how all of NATO rallied behind them after 9/11.

https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-britain-zelenskyy-europe-starmer-trump-russia-b980170ead74a1a7914c565f14ee6cc9?utm_source=copy&utm_medium=share

Sunday’s summit is likely to include talks on establishing a European military force to be sent to Ukraine to underpin a ceasefire. Starmer said it would involve “a coalition of the willing.

Let's see how it goes.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 02/03/2025 11:22

The US and UK agreed some time ago that Ukraine should be in Nato. Guess who opposed it? Germany as they were so dependent on Russian gas. With Ukraine in Nato, Putin wouldn't have dared to invade.

kattaduck · 02/03/2025 11:25

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 11:12

Where did he say that? I’ve seen an entire video where he talks about people calling him right wing but he’s not.

If opposing this insanity makes me right wing, then so be it. The choice is between civilisation and people who think men can give birth. Everything else is fluff.”

He also doesn't find anything wrong with being called that so why do you?

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:26

The negotiations will continue and hopefully be fruitful. And we have to thank Trump for starting them. There is no doubt on that. He is right on asking for negotiations and more contributions. That is not what I am criticising.

But tomorrow will be a completely different landscape to yesterday. US has taken a path away from Europe here. Against Europe. He has gone too far with this pandering to Putin. It is not diplomatic pandering, but it sounds and feels like a full on back up of Russia. This may not mean much to you in US, but it most definitively means to me, a misile away from Russia.

EasternStandard · 02/03/2025 11:27

@kattaduck NATO isn't dead but if it does become so we're all in deep shit. That's the problem.

Sunday’s summit is likely to include talks on establishing a European military force to be sent to Ukraine to underpin a ceasefire.

So far we've offered 30k peacekeepers only with US security.

Do you want to go ahead without US security and how many troops are you willing to send?

EasternStandard · 02/03/2025 11:28

@MushMonster would you then send troops to Ukraine without US security?

If there's combat do you stay and send more?

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:33

@EasternStandard yes, I think you are fully right on the path the talks are taking. Focusing on what we can do, on our own. With our own peace security.

And, we should have done it before. We should not rely on US. This is our fault and only ours.
We are to get ready, pronto, to go along without US. Whether Trump keeps his alignment with Putin or not, we should be able to secure our own defence, our own policies and our own democracies, all on our own and so, on our own terms. Both on security and trade.

EasternStandard · 02/03/2025 11:36

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 11:33

@EasternStandard yes, I think you are fully right on the path the talks are taking. Focusing on what we can do, on our own. With our own peace security.

And, we should have done it before. We should not rely on US. This is our fault and only ours.
We are to get ready, pronto, to go along without US. Whether Trump keeps his alignment with Putin or not, we should be able to secure our own defence, our own policies and our own democracies, all on our own and so, on our own terms. Both on security and trade.

@MushMonster this is a good article which asks whether Europe can go it alone with US

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czjeejw9z4zo.amp

It's pretty much no, we need them.

Do you have boys out of interest so you're including them in potential troops?

Swipe left for the next trending thread