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Konstantin Kristin's take on the Zelensky /Trump press conference

359 replies

BusyExpert · 01/03/2025 17:10

Konstantin Kristin who is much more knowledgable about events in Ukraine has posted this on his substack. I repeat it here to see if has any effect on the uninformed hysteria being spouted.He explains far better than I could why Zelensky blew it. His ego got in the way and he failed to put it his country before his own ego which was not, as has been the norm from world leaders, been massaged.

Kristin says
"Before we address the in the Oval Office yesterday, a bunch of disclaimers are sadly necessary. Such are the times we live in.
If you are unfamiliar with my work, when Vladimir Putin’s troops invaded Ukraine in 2022, I went on one of the in Britain to express my shame for what Russia was doing and to call on our leaders to support Volodymyr Zelensky in defence of his country. In the weeks that followed, I gave interview after interview and participated in endless debates about our involvement in Ukraine. On TRIGGERnometry, we raised the best part of $100,000 in two hours for Ukrainian charities. My wife and I have sent supplies, clothing and our own money to friends, family and strangers in Ukraine to help them deal with the brutality of war and Russia’s deliberate targeting of Ukraine’s energy systems. Only last week, I described Trump’s labelling of Zelensky as a “dictator” as “absurd”. I can hardly be accused of being a Putin shill. Indeed, my feelings on the subject are so strong that when I saw a short clip of JD Vance and Donald Trump lambasting Volodymyr Zelensky in front of TV cameras last night, like most people, I assumed that this was yet another example of President Trump strong-arming Ukraine into accepting a rushed and unfavourable ceasefire with Russia. To my embarrassment, I tweeted as much.

Having complained only last week of journalists clipping my words out of context, I fell victim to the same trick myself. When I later watched the full 50-minute press conference, it became clear that President Trump had actually done his best to do a deal, and that it was President Zelensky who scuppered it through an ill-advised spat with JD Vance. This gave the Vice President justification to unleash a barrage of anti-Ukraine MAGA talking points he had clearly been waiting to deploy. As if this wasn’t enough, Zelensky then proceeded to mutter an insult under his breath, interrupt and argue with Trump himself, which led to the deal offer being withdrawn and Zelensky being sent to his room without his supper.

So, why did this happen and how can peace be salvaged? To understand why Zelensky acted the way he did, you have to consider the reality he has been operating in:

For the last 3 years, he has led his country in a heroic defence against a brutal and barbaric invasion. He saw innocent Ukrainian civilians being slaughtered, tortured and raped. He watched missiles and drones rain down on his towns and cities. He welcomed Ukrainian POWs on their return from Russian prisons and torture camps, only to discover they were emaciated, bruised and broken. He has spoken with Ukrainian parents whose childrenhave been stolen and taken to Russia.

During the same time period, he has received in every room he has entered. In Europe, across the political spectrum, Ukraine’s cause is seen as just, righteous and important for our collective safety. Foreign leaders have travelled to Kiev for photo ops with him. He has spoken in every major parliament in the world. Praise and attention have been lavished on him from every direction. At every turn, he has been told “we stand with Ukraine”, “Slava Ukraine” and so on.
This is one of the reasons his negotiating position appears somewhat disconnected from reality. During the press conference he argued that Russia must pay for the war on the basis that in history “whoever starts the war, pays”. What he appears to be missing is that this isn’t remotely true: in history, whoever wins makes the losing side pay. While neither side has defeated the other, Ukraine can hardly claim victory.
For all these reasons, the reality vortex he entered in the Oval Office yesterday would have been a shock. The fact is that MAGA, the dominant force in the world’s leading nation, does not share the European view of President Zelensky. You may agree or disagree, but to the current occupants of the White House, their advisors and their base, President Zelensky - and forgive me for putting this bluntly- is an untrustworthy leader of a corrupt country on the other side of the world who keeps asking for more money America doesn’t have to fight a war they neither care about nor feel he can win. Most of these perceptions stem primarily from domestic American politics and the hatred MAGA has for anyone and anything President Biden touched. Most Americans don’t know where Ukraine is and have no reason to care. To them, this is just another “forever war” like Iraq and Afghanistan.
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In other words, President Zelensky walked into a room in which people who don’t particularly like him, don’t particularly trust him, and don’t particularly care about his “just and righteous cause” were nevertheless prepared to continue giving him money, weapons and political support in order to make this problem go away. All he had to do was look grateful. When you are attempting to convert other people’s good will into hard currency, that is the bare minimum. And for 40 minutes, Zelensky just about managed.

The rationale for the argument he then instigated with JD Vance is not without merit. As I explained in my last video, Zelensky’s primary concern has to be what are known as “security guarantees” - this is a fancy way of saying that Putin is a proven liar who can’t be trusted to stick to any agreement reached. Therefore, the only way to prevent another invasion is through a permanent presence of European or American troops in between Russia and Ukraine. He kept making this point over and over during the press conference and did so diplomatically enough.

But the way he challenged Vance directly in front of the cameras was catastrophically stupid. Sure, if you hate Trump and Vance and think they’re taking part in a Youtube debate, then Zelensky made a valid point. But this was not a debate. They’re all supposed to be on the same side. And the person who has the most to lose from them not feeling like they’re all on the same side is President Zelensky, or, more importantly, his nation. The arguments about security guarantees should have been made with tact, diplomacy, and in private.

To make things worse, he followed this unfortunate error with another, much bigger one. In Europe, Zelensky is used to winning people over to his cause by claiming that Ukraine is all that stands between them and Vladimir Putin. We can argue about whether such claims are true, but the important thing is that in Europe we are much more receptive to this message for both cultural and pragmatic reasons. We are on the same continent as Russia and NATO’s eastern border is now in contact with Russia. This point of contact would have been significantly extended had Ukraine been overrun.

These arguments don’t wash in America and what’s worse, Americans HATE people painting a negative picture of their society’s future. This is why, I believe, President Trump interrupted Zelensky when he claimed that America won’t be protected from Putin by an ocean and shut him down.

None of this is to suggest that Vance or Trump behaved perfectly. But they aren’t the ones asking for more money, weapons, and diplomatic support. Their job is to look generous and find a route to peace. Zelensky’s job is to realise that he stopped being a human being when he became President of a country reliant on foreign aid to survive. He does not have the luxury of righteousness and his country cannot afford to have him lose control of his senses as he did."

OP posts:
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kattaduck · 02/03/2025 09:26

"Also, people say Trump is up Putin's arse but surely part of being a statesman is careful flattery, how would it make sense for Trump to trash Putin publicly? Of course it makes sense for him to try and have a good relationship with him."

He doesn't have to publically trash Putin but he did trash Zelensky which he didn't have to do either. So yeah that's what people are calling him out on ( besides other things like allowing cuberwarfore on US for example)

thepariscrimefiles · 02/03/2025 09:30

All these threads! It's as though Mumsnet has morphed into a Russian 'bot farm'. Konstantin Kisin is the guy who said that Rishi Sunak isn't English, even though he was born here because he is a brown Hindu.

Needtosoundoffandbreathe · 02/03/2025 09:30

billysboy · 02/03/2025 08:53

Absolutely this ! its not dissimilar to Nato contributions

Because the US is a much bigger country in terms of head of population would be a starting point. Not exactly a gotcha.

Populations by country mentioned:
US 340m
Germany 83m
UK 68m

Edited to add that these countries have wealth relative to their populations too.

kattaduck · 02/03/2025 09:31

AlisonDonut · 02/03/2025 09:19

It IS a valid question that EVERY country that paid money to Ukraine should be asking. The conundrum is why aren't they?

We are all invested in an outcome that saves the planet from WW3 so someone needs to have some sort of resolution.

Because they already have an answer.
And everybody wants peace but there can be no peace without guarantee that Russia won't attack again. Zelensky has to ask for this because otherwise he will give up his resources for nothing.

In an ideal world US and Europe would be brokering a peace deal together with a safety guarantee for Ukraine in exchange for the mineral rights and rebuilding of Ukraine. Trump does not want that though.

Needtosoundoffandbreathe · 02/03/2025 09:31

thepariscrimefiles · 02/03/2025 09:30

All these threads! It's as though Mumsnet has morphed into a Russian 'bot farm'. Konstantin Kisin is the guy who said that Rishi Sunak isn't English, even though he was born here because he is a brown Hindu.

If you have doubts about a poster, report. Don't troll hunt on threads.

BoldRed · 02/03/2025 09:32

I see all the tedious Kremlin talking points (lies) being wheeled out again. We know what’s been given and what it’s been spent on. US aid didn’t arrive in a series of bank transfers to Zelenskyy’s personal bank account. It’s arrived largely in the form of US made weapons, the manufacture of which has poured money into the US economy, created jobs and allowed the US military to upgrade its own equipment as older versions were shipped to Ukraine. There is no Trump ‘peace deal’. Trump wanted to bully Zelenskyy into signing over hundreds of billions of Ukrainian national resources in return for absolutely nothing, while Trump insults Zelenskyy and fawns over the murderous dictator Putin.

AlexandrinaH · 02/03/2025 09:33

Dollydaydream100 · 01/03/2025 21:21

I agree with everything in your OP.

What Trump and Vance said was true - but their delivery was extremely unfortunate and made Zelenskyy, who stayed calm, look like a hero.

When Trump said Z was going to start WW3 he was right.

I think the hysteria is a bit like Brexit mark II, those who shout loudest etc - not necessarily what the majority are thinking, but most can't be arsed getting into it and being called "evil bigots" "rape apologists" "thick" etc.

I wonder how many of those spouting unfailing (and never ending) support for Ukraine (70% of who's population want the war to end NOW) will be happy to wave their sons and grandsons off to war?

It's all well and good to want to appear virtuous and be on the "good guys" side - but the reality is giving Ukraine more money and support is just dragging this out even longer and putting our country in a very dangerous position - especially now the US are out.

Absolutely true and anyone who doesn’t see this is completely naive.

BoldRed · 02/03/2025 09:35

Zelenskyy started nothing. The war began with Putin’s brutal invasion and it continues only because Putin continues to attack Ukraine. It’s that simple.

mantaraya · 02/03/2025 09:37

There's a table in the Times today showing how much aid various countries have paid to Ukraine, the US has paid $114 billion next is Germany with $29 billion then the UK with $14 billion, I do think it's an absolutely valid question from the US as to why it is them that are paying so much

The US' GBP is about ten times larger than the UK GDP. Perhaps you could argue that this is a bigger problem for the UK so they should be paying disproportionately more but a strong, aggressive, land grabbing Russia is bad for the US as well as Europe.

Ultimately the reason European leaders are fawning over Zelenskyy is because we all recognise that Ukraine is fighting a battle not just for themselves but for the world. If Ukraine capitulates then their neighbour will be next. And if we sit back and let Russia invade their neighbours then where does it end? And what's to stop other countries seeing this as the greenlight to do the same?

MikeRafone · 02/03/2025 09:39

It’s arrived largely in the form of US made weapons, the manufacture of which has poured money into the US economy, created jobs and allowed the US military to upgrade its own equipment as older versions were shipped to Ukraine.

This^

you can't buy a diamond ring or become on billionaire on this type of transaction, which is what the propaganda is suggesting and similar stories

40% of ammunition ww is made in US, its a large part of their economy

SunshinDay · 02/03/2025 09:41

I looked at this where has the money gone this am and a quick Google shows that of x billion blah goes directly to Ukraine in the form of military assets, the rest goes to intellectual stuff, intelligence, training Ukraine soldiers and pilots etc.
So it's an allocation that is divided up in various ways.
I tried to research the accusation that Ukraine is selling USA military aid on the black market and didn't get far

This has been a excellent thread with some proper in depth view points and facts and articles and assumptions!

STARMER is currently on Laura k bbc and he's doing very well. She asked him about the state visit and he said that's between the king and trump she pushed him, come on it can't happen without government support. He flashed back, we are in an extremely difficult position and he actually flashed a warning look in his eyes at her.
Pressing home the point we are really in the shit. Don't push this. Ie does it matter putting on the glitz when we are literally facing trouble with a nuked up maniac.
I am no starmer fan at all but he's handling himself OK at the moment. So far at these critical moments I feel OK he's doing OK.

SunshinDay · 02/03/2025 09:44

@TempestTost thanks for your posts it's such a pleasure to read some more balanced and nuanced takes on this.

There is also another organisation that UK are taking the lead on I can't remember it's name.

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 09:46

Porcuporpoise · 02/03/2025 08:42

@Purplelodestone with no security guarantees how would any deal stop more Ukrainians being killed? Trading resources for security is one thing, but just giving them away?

I think the idea is that, once Americans are working in Ukraine under this official deal, Putin would not want to risk killing them in a war, as that might provoke a USA response.

I think the idea is that this is a more face saving way for Putin to end the war.

An official security promise is humiliating for Putin. This unofficial security via trade is more face saving.

I don’t agree that Putin wants to keep invading countries. He expected a win within weeks in Ukraine and it’s dragged on for three years. It’s been an embarrassment for Russia and exposed how weak their military really is.

Putin wants a face saving way to exit the war, and I think this is the idea behind the mineral deal. Let Putin keep what he’s conquered so far, a trade deal with Ukraine rather than a security deal. I think those arguing for this approach think this will give Putin enough perceived ‘win’ that he feels able to exit the war with dignity.

And of course the mineral deals benefits USA so a win/win from Trumps perspective

It might not be fair, but life rarely is. I think those advocating this approach see this as a pragmatic solution.

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 09:59

kattaduck · 02/03/2025 09:26

"Also, people say Trump is up Putin's arse but surely part of being a statesman is careful flattery, how would it make sense for Trump to trash Putin publicly? Of course it makes sense for him to try and have a good relationship with him."

He doesn't have to publically trash Putin but he did trash Zelensky which he didn't have to do either. So yeah that's what people are calling him out on ( besides other things like allowing cuberwarfore on US for example)

This exactly.
Of course, for diplomacy you have to be friends with everyone. But Trump is siding, clearly with Putin. Which makes him firmly on the other side of the table from Europe. Exactly where the US is not supposed to be. Nothing he does now can change this.
He is also posting videos in very very bad taste, about forcibly removing Gazans from Gaza to build his riviera. He is saying the Gazans will have to go into Egypt, Jordan, he added Saudi Arabia to it recently (prompting a reply message in the middle of the night), he has added Spain, Norway and Ireland to the mix, just because they have recognised the existance of Palestine (again, not making friends with Europe here). Jordan helped US to defend Israel, not so long ago. These countries have suppressed demonstrations from their own citizens regarding the war in Gaza. Now Trump is placing US against them.
He has annoyed and angered Canada and Mexico.

Maybe he should act a bit more diplomatic.

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 10:02

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 09:46

I think the idea is that, once Americans are working in Ukraine under this official deal, Putin would not want to risk killing them in a war, as that might provoke a USA response.

I think the idea is that this is a more face saving way for Putin to end the war.

An official security promise is humiliating for Putin. This unofficial security via trade is more face saving.

I don’t agree that Putin wants to keep invading countries. He expected a win within weeks in Ukraine and it’s dragged on for three years. It’s been an embarrassment for Russia and exposed how weak their military really is.

Putin wants a face saving way to exit the war, and I think this is the idea behind the mineral deal. Let Putin keep what he’s conquered so far, a trade deal with Ukraine rather than a security deal. I think those arguing for this approach think this will give Putin enough perceived ‘win’ that he feels able to exit the war with dignity.

And of course the mineral deals benefits USA so a win/win from Trumps perspective

It might not be fair, but life rarely is. I think those advocating this approach see this as a pragmatic solution.

But if Europe thinks (or knows due to intelligence) that Putin wants more, then this does not apply.
There is also all the sabotage, explosives in aircraft and warehouses, the hacking and so on and on. This is a threat to Europe and it needs to be stopped.

Porcuporpoise · 02/03/2025 10:03

@Cleardays if that's was Trump's plan then why would he and Vance attack him like that? Why would they have been briefing against him?

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 10:11

Porcuporpoise · 02/03/2025 10:03

@Cleardays if that's was Trump's plan then why would he and Vance attack him like that? Why would they have been briefing against him?

I guess the argument is that they are publicly saying things that please Putin, as it’s Putin they need to persuade to move position.

They wanted to make clear to Zelensky that he’s not getting his security guarantee so he can shut up about it. Because they need that to go to get Putin onside.

We can hate Putin as much as we like ( and I do), but he’s not going to be militarily defeated and no other country wants to be drawn into a war with him in defense of Ukraine, That means Putin needs to be persuaded to abandon the war on terms he finds agreeable and face saving.

EasternStandard · 02/03/2025 10:15

@Cleardays your post reminds of something discussed ages ago on Ukraine threads. That what is needed is an off ramp.

I also agree with @AlisonDonut re throwing more people into fighting

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 10:16

MushMonster · 02/03/2025 10:02

But if Europe thinks (or knows due to intelligence) that Putin wants more, then this does not apply.
There is also all the sabotage, explosives in aircraft and warehouses, the hacking and so on and on. This is a threat to Europe and it needs to be stopped.

Putin could not even defeat Ukraine. I presume he would eventually, but God knows in How many years, and the cost to Russia would be huge.

I just don’t think Putin would then start invading other countries. His military is clearly not up to it. He may not have realised this when he invaded Ukraine, but he will now.

The best way to end this, the only way, is to give him a way out.

I’m not sure what you think ‘stopping Russia’ means other than this? No one wants WW3 with Russia.

Porcuporpoise · 02/03/2025 10:17

Terms Putin finds "agreeable and face saving" would be agreeing that Russia gets to keep the territory its captured. Not leaving the door open for him to come come back and take another bite when he's regrouped.

ZooAccountant · 02/03/2025 10:21

TaggieO · 02/03/2025 08:51

Also, nice casual sexism there. Any reason women can’t go to war….?

And it’s not about waving our sons and daughters off to fight for Ukraine. Putin isn’t going to be stopping with “just a bit of Ukraine”. It’ll be a bit more. And then all of it. Then comes Poland and Slovakia, Australia and Germany. France. And then it’s our turn. So do we get behind the very real need to stop Putin now, or wait til he’s invading the South Coast with his new empire that’s 3 times the size of what he has now and only then worry that we should have been more vocal in stopping him earlier…?

The fact you think Putin wants Britain is hilarious 🤣

Itsforthebest · 02/03/2025 10:22

Here we go again, somebody trying to persuade us black is white and white is black.

A bit like when he told us Elon's Nazi salute was 'an aspie guy doing an awkward gesture to say my heart goes out to you'.

We know what we witnessed.

SunshinDay · 02/03/2025 10:24

Completely agree clear days, they must know putin wants a way out and this is a face saving way of doing that with putin not gaining Ukraine and being contained but unfortunately with the loss of the donbass.
I agree putin wouldn't want to harm USA workers there in Ukraine.
Unfortunately I am not sure what happened in the oval office is enough to get putin to the table. He has already said he won't accept peace keeping troops.
I think even mentioning them at these early stages was a mistake and details to be thrashed out later.

Porcuporpoise · 02/03/2025 10:26

Cleardays · 02/03/2025 10:11

I guess the argument is that they are publicly saying things that please Putin, as it’s Putin they need to persuade to move position.

They wanted to make clear to Zelensky that he’s not getting his security guarantee so he can shut up about it. Because they need that to go to get Putin onside.

We can hate Putin as much as we like ( and I do), but he’s not going to be militarily defeated and no other country wants to be drawn into a war with him in defense of Ukraine, That means Putin needs to be persuaded to abandon the war on terms he finds agreeable and face saving.

Do you strike deals and alliances by trying to publicly humiliate your allies? What line of business are you in again?

You can attribute what we are seeing to great guile and cunning if you wish but it looks like overinflated egos and crass stupidity to me.

SunshinDay · 02/03/2025 10:27

I hope the leaders zelensky meets today and the strong message from the nato chief help to calm zelensky down and help him re think things.