To think free bus passes for the old should be abolished?

[Bumpitybumper]

Statistics show that on average wealth peaks at age 65-74 in the UK, why then do we give these people free bus passes? It makes absolutely no sense at all and is just an unnecessary expense. The idea that 'young' pensioners are a relatively poor group of people is completely incorrect and it only serves to enhance the already massive intergenerational wealth gap between baby boomers and everyone else.

My bad. 🤷‍♀️

@Lentilweaver I feel the same as you. If we were so petty as a society to do this I would despair. Just at what drives it.

That's why I suggested means testing because some over 60's have very limited means so only benefits.

I've just got mine and use it for longer inter city journeys. But day to day I use my car

I guess it's more cost effective to make it universal and pay for actual use than it is to means test it

Very few areas give free bus passes at age 60 it's SPA. As has been mentioned several times on here.

😂

What a nasty, bitter post. Why pick on the elderly OP? Why not put a stop to all benefits?

Are you actually for real?
I mean seriously for real??

I've worked from no age it's the least I'll be entitled to.
Maybe take the benefits of the people that are bluffing! That would save billions.

Maybe get a hobby there OP!!

Well, if you don't die in an apoplexy of rage over this highly significant issue which is the clear root of all our society's woes, you might just get to enjoy it for yourself one day.

I don't understand the reasoning. Taxes aren't paid on an investment basis (even if you've chosen to see it that way).

I don't understand the objection to means testing.

I live in London, where I see numerous professionals still working use their free travel to get the bus or tube in from wealthy areas like Islington and Richmond. No good reason why they can't pay.

Ofcourse it's not. Our bus services are not run to make the country work at all. I am very happy that where you live the buses run and make living in the country viable without a car. Wish it was so here.

@ThePiglet I live in London, where I see numerous professionals still working use their free travel to get the bus or tube

If they are still working, then indirectly, they are still paying for all ‘ benefits’- through council tax, income tax and national insurance, etc.

Politics of envy is never a good look.

nursing students’ travel expenses are not claimed back from the NHS unless they are on an NHS bursary commissioned place at university - sort of “sponsored” students which are the minority of nursing students.

Other student nurses can claim help with travel expenses if they are in receipt of certain learning support initiatives/bursaries. In Scotland, such expenses are paid by SAAS (not the NHS directly) but the amount is capped so some students will have to pay some of their travel expenses. A certain amount for travel to and from placement is included in their bursary (Scotland) so they can only claim excessive amounts, for example if they are placed rurally and very far from home. If they chose to take their car rather than the cheapest public transport, they need to pay any additional costs.

FIL used to travel to work with his free travel card to cash in his £200k consulting role! While someone on minimum wage was down £200 a month on their travel. It’s ludicrous that it’s universal.
Ive no problem with the concept of free travel being targeted at lower income pensioners but it’s not justifiable that it’s universal.
The reality is that it will be means tested in the near future. The arguments about it being more costly are out dated. We have so much more admin infrastructure and it would be straight forward to link the bus pass with pension credit and the winter fuel means testing.

So what’s the argument for them being the only ones to receive it? Why not everyone else who is also working? Why not only low incomes working or retired?

It’s got nothing to do with envy and everything to do with economic sense. Some people are financially worse off than pensioners, there’s simply no reason for free travel regardless of income purely based on age.

Everything you say is true. Except one thing: 'Public money shouldn't be spent keeping routes open that aren't essential for the community and aren't economically viable without funding a load of pensioners to use them.'
This is free market Thatcherism/neo-liberalism, where the only worth of people is as economic units and the only worth of infrastructure is to serve economic purposes.
That one thing negates all your other points.
There is more to life than participation in the consumerist economic market-driven world we currently inhabit. If you think that only economic requirements are important perhaps you should look at exactly why you are working. Is it because you cannot think of a job you'd rather do and don't go and see if there is one? Is it because you need to support yourself and family but hope other generations can do better, but assume you cannot change what you do? Is it because you see the work you do as building something beyond yourself so that even if you do only a part of that work, that work is worthwhile?
I have a car and a bus pass. I use both. I use the bus pass for journeys into the town centre, usually to volunteer at a historical attraction or go to a daytime activity. I use the car if I am going off a (known) bus route and want to get where I am going expeditiously (and know I can park) or if I am making several stops, e.g. going to the library, the supermarket and the gym, then visiting someone. I also use the car if I am going a distance at night on my own, as long as I know there is a safe, well-lit car park at the destination (if there is not then I either don't go or go with someone else). All of this transport business is, of course, influenced by my sex.
Not everyone has my choice and as I go deeper into age my choices will probably narrow so that a bus into town is a life-line. Why should old people be trapped in their homes because what they do is less essential (your essentials being: going to work, the school run)? Keeping the place going is essential and - like women's domestic work, without which the economy could not function - it is the 'inessentials' which make our lives worthwhile and make the world work, but they are ignored by those who see the world as a series of transactions between individuals for money.

@Completelyjo FIL used to travel to work with his free travel card to cash in his £200k consulting role!

It sounds like you are not that keen on your FIL and there is a hint of it’s not fair politics of envy in your post. As a higher rate tax payer he would have been paying back into the system far more than the cost of his ‘free’ travel. Presumably he had been paying higher rate tax during much of his working life and was never a ‘burden’ on the system’s coffers. Good on him using off peak travel! His doing so makes no difference to his fellow travellers.

Nope, i have absolutely no ill feelings towards FIL in the slightest I just think it’s unjustifiable to hand out free travel to one age group regardless of income when many in the age bracket are actually high earners.
You can keep saying it over and over, but it’s not politics of envy. There are many areas the money would be better spend than subsidising high income pensioners.

I have a hobby thanks and I am absolutely for real.

I think the important word in your post is 'entitled'. You, like the rest of us, have no inalienable entitlement to any government benefit. You may want a free bus pass and you may be eligible for one under current rules but rules can change and I believe they should be modified as outlined in my OP.

Free market Thatcherism is exactly right @Grammarnut

@Gram[tagged by mistake and can't delete! Sorry!]

@Grammarnut the issue I have with the argument that this is a good way to subsidise public transport is that it's not clear to me how this is actually working and I'm not familiar with how this works for the bus companies. If it's working by the bus companies getting a payment per pensioner journey, the risk is that bus companies then prioritise routes that are commonly used by pensioners. It's not clear that you'd have the same travel pattern if it was a different group getting the free bus park. Eg if it was at home parents getting a free bus pass, would there be increased usage of buses near schools at 3pm, whereas with pensioners it's maybe journeys at 9am to the local shopping centre? And would that then change how the bus routes are planned moving forwards? I actually don't know how it all works but I am sure that the increased numbers of pensioners travelling because it's free will be biasing route planning towards the needs of that group. Now maybe that's right, because it's the right group to prioritise, but I am very sceptical that it's all working out perfectly!

To ensure I'm clear - I absolutely support subsidising public transport. It's just I'm not clear I support this way of doing it!

@Completelyjo There are many areas the money would be better spend than subsidising high income pensioners.

With that statement I do not disagree. The taxes anyone pays on their hard-earned income should not be used to subsidise anything or anyone over and above our own people’s needs. That is a whole new topic! Until the revolution, I will not begrudge anyone in the winter of their years, anything - especially if they still have good enough health to get out and about enjoying what time is left.

@Grammarnut I don't necessarily disagree with a lot what you write and I would suggest that Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs encapsulates your points well. My argument would be though that we can't afford to fund the bottom levels of the pyramid properly as a country and these absolutely must take priority. I will remind you that it currently costs the UK the equivalent of two thirds of the NHS budget or the whole education budget just to service national debt. Literally money spent on interest payments. We absolutely cannot afford to take on anymore debt and should ideally be paying it down asap. This means tough decisions need to be made and I think the £700 million ploughed into concessionary travel in England alone needs to be looked at. Keep it for the disabled and over 75s but remove it for the 65-74 year olds.

So I don't think that older people getting out and about is without value but I think that we need to concentrate tax payers money predominantly on meeting the more basic needs of the individual especially around health and care. Without these fundamentals being sorted then a free bus is the least of everyone's worries.

This is a disadvantage of using pensioners' travel to increase routes. In the UK a bus pass cannot be used before 9.30 a.m. on a week-day, so pensioners are not taking the place of workers/students then. Buses that run to supermarkets where I live are sadly few and sometimes follow convulated routes - I drive, it's easier and anyway how am I getting the shopping home?