To think free bus passes for the old should be abolished?

[Bumpitybumper]

Statistics show that on average wealth peaks at age 65-74 in the UK, why then do we give these people free bus passes? It makes absolutely no sense at all and is just an unnecessary expense. The idea that 'young' pensioners are a relatively poor group of people is completely incorrect and it only serves to enhance the already massive intergenerational wealth gap between baby boomers and everyone else.

the issue is a lack of empathy or imagination

It’s not that she disagrees with me, it’s that she claims that she is obviously able to imagine being old (no one can claim this) and because she is unwilling to accept that her ideas may be influenced by her own situational biases (they inevitably are- this applies to all of us). This demonstrates a lack of self awareness/ critical reflection applied to self.

Unless you want a lifetime on NMW, you DO need a degree these days. Even low level admin work tends to have a minimum requirement of a degree. Back in the 70s/80s things were different. You could get a decent semi skilled job with just a few O levels and a trainee professional position with 2-3 A levels. Things have really changed in the jobs market. So a lot of students really don't have much of a choice if they want a decent career - there is a massive shortage in apprenticeship schemes which as massively highly over-subscribed.

I agree…..but theres a lot that do degrees that aren’t in demand, commercially, and end up in NWW jobs….some not even looking for anything better. I know a lot of friends DC that are just like this. Some are trying their best to find something in their field of interest….but a lot of others are just swanning around with no intention of improving the situation, with some kind of twisted idea that it’s not worth being paid more as it means they have to repay the loan 🤷🏼‍♀️
That’s what happens when everybody sees uni as simply a rite of passage and not a foot into a good career. It kind of reduces the value of a degree when every Tom, Dick n Harry has one.

I’ll give up my bus pass when the government equalises pensions between the pre and post 2016 retirees. £50 a week more thank you kindly. Women, like me, born before 1950, needed 39 years of full NI contributions to qualify for the basic, as against 35 for younger women. Hardly surprising with a lack of childcare, and no NI home responsibilities credits there are many older women with very small pensions, state and other, in their own right.

All sorts of anomalies with benefits over the years. Give a flat rate child benefit to every child, and a decent state pension to all retirees, and claw the extra back via taxes. Simple to understand.

I'm with Bumpity, it was a ridiculous response. Deary.

I agree with all that, but it's driven by employers, not the students/school leavers. I don't doubt that a minority of students only go to Uni for the social/partying aspect, with no intention of ever getting a job paying well enough to repay their student loans, but the majority are going for the right reasons. Unfortunately, it didn't help that Blair introduced the stupid 50% aim, and that successive politicians dismantled our World leading adult education system in the 90s and 00s that meant it became harder to re-train once you left full time education, so that also pushed a lot of people into Unis who may previously have got "normal" jobs upon leaving school and then re-trained via adult education routes at a later age via day release or evening classes.

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous.

The array of posts on this thread show that there are lots of young people that feel passionately that the free bus passes should be retained for all pensioners and there are some pensioners that are happy for them to at least be means tested. I imagine that you think all those young people that agree with you have complete insight into their situational bias whereas because I disagree with you that I have none. Convenient that! Obviously you're completely objective and independent to judge all of this because you are completely immune to situational bias.

I know people of all ages and have relatives and people that I work with that span all generations. One thing I can tell you is there is no universal experience of being 70 so your whole premise is wrong. I know a 70 plus year old that takes great pride in being fitter than most people in their 40s. I also know 60 year olds that seem elderly in comparison. There is a huge range at this age and pretending that only 70 year olds can understand the physical and mental state of other 70 year olds is completely wrong.

I am relatively young, I am a net contributor ( I wouldn't say paying loads of tax is a privilege to be honest) and I disagree with you. You therefore think I am objectively wrong and lack self awareness as anyone with awareness would agree. I find the inability to accept that someone can have a legitimate alternative perspective as very narrow minded.

Pensioners who need their bus passes for essential travel and who need the financial help should be allowed to have the pass
wealthy pensioners who use the pass to pop into town and have a bit of lunch and do some shopping are relieving parking and traffic pressure and they are the people who are keeping the high streets propped up these days, so their free pass brings its own economic benefit

Of course our circumstances in life influence our perception of things. This is true for all of us. It’s really important to be aware of these things and interrogate them. No one is able to be objective. The fact that you dismiss the idea as ridiculous is a problem and exposes your blind spots.

In terms of being privileged- if you are a net contributor- you are comparatively very wealthy, and yes that is very privileged. Your notion that you are not privileged because you have to pay lots of tax also displays a lack of awareness of your own position in relation to others.

Yeah, this is as much a myth as if young people gave up avocados and Costa coffees they could afford houses. Yes, some are rich. Lots aren't. Without the bus pass, many wouldn't get out of the house.

It's not a myth. There are statistics to back it up. There are also several studies that show that avocados, netflix and iPhones don't make a meaningful difference when it comes to the affordability of housing.

You can't just dismiss actual statistics and data because they don't suit your narrative

Of course I accept our life experiences impact our references and beliefs. Where I think you're posts are ridiculous are that you are desperate to suggest that we are all universally inflicted with this curse and yet only you and those that agree with you are blessed with the ability to interrogate this bias and come up with the 'right' answer. I would suggest that this in fact is your blind spot. You don't even acknowledge that some pensioners on this thread actually agree with me. Are they also unable to imagine what it's like to be 70 (even though they are indeed 70)?

You can be a net contributor and not be very wealthy. Wealth isn't about income but also and arguably more about assets and the balance between income and outgoings. I think perhaps you need to work on your own awareness before spouting off about mine.

Where I think you're posts are ridiculous are that you are desperate to suggest that we are all universally inflicted with this curse and yet only you and those that agree with you are blessed with the ability to interrogate this bias and come up with the 'right' answer.

But i never said this anywhere. It’s entirely your own projection. I only objected to your total dismissal that you could possibly be biased. It’s very likely that not needing a bus pass has- at least partially- influenced your perception. It’s good to reflect on that. You may see things very differently when you are older. You may not. But the idea that you dismiss you youth as being a factor as absurd and pretend you know what it’s like to be old tells me how much self reflection you have really done.
I also think it’s absurd that you believe we live in a society where older people are loved. Most societies around the world have so much more respect for older people and place much greater value on them than we do in the UK.

Oh come on! I lack empathy and imagination according to you. This is obviously because I disagree with you. How on earth else could you make these assertions? You literally have no idea how empathetic or imaginative I am other than I have argued against 65-74 year old having free bus passes.

I also disagree with you on all net contributors being wealthy. It simply isn't true. They don't all have above average net wealth.

I lack empathy and imagination according to you. This is obviously because I disagree with you.
Nowhere did I say this.

If you google for the rationale behind the policy you'll see all the benefits to society, eg allows female carers who are often in this age bracket to provide free help to their families, increases money spent in local shops and leisure venues, saves money on community transport, saves NHS money by keeping older people active. Viewing the subject through the lens of resentment and envy isn't helpful.

You asked "Am I being unreasonable?"
80% of voters on this forum say that you are.

I'm not viewing it through the lens or envy and resentment. I'm not envious of those with a free bus pass nor do I resent the fact they have one. I think you could write an equivalent list for giving free bus passes to any age group. It is a benefit so will have advantages for any group that receives it. The question is whether you believe that there is sufficient justification for opting to provide this universal benefit to 65-74 year olds, especially when other poorer groups aren't entitled to the same benefit. I personally don't believe this to be the case. It isn't a view that's fueled through negativity but more neutrally about the best allocation of government assets. My motivation isn't to take anything anyway from anyone, I simply want to do other things with the money that I think would be better for society as a whole.

Yes, I know and that's fine. I accept the majority of people have voted that IABU. This thread has attracted a disproportionate amount of pensioners so I doubt the percentages reflect opinion in the general population but I imagine that there is still overall support at the moment. There have been many posts though that have misinterpreted the question and referenced the very elderly etc which is frustrating . I wish I had phrased the OP and poll question more clearly as I think it would have delivered a different outcome.

This thread has attracted a disproportionate amount of pensioners so I doubt the percentages reflect opinion in the general population

wait what? Are you saying that pensioners are more likely to be in favour of the policy compared to people who aren’t pensioners?
Isnt this exactly what you were calling ridiculous and arguing with me about 🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️

Not abolished, possibly means tested. It seems grossly unfair that loaded pensioners, who own their homes outright, get a free ride, whilst working people can’t even afford a few quid for the bus. Maybe if fewer free bus passes were given out then the tickets could become cheaper for everyone, including the people who no longer qualify. I don’t think that being old should mean that you automatically get all the freebies.

So now you know the age of every poster? LOL

Suggest you do further research into the sound reasons why the government set up and continue to support the ENCTS. You may be surprised.

Congratulations on an interesting thread.

Older people will always be the wealthiest group because it takes time to build wealth. They have had years to save into a pension and pay off their mortgage.

It doesn't mean they have a high income as they are using their pension and savings to live on.

So you've calculated how msny posters are pensioners now? I'm not a pensioner and completely disagree with everything you say.

@Bumpitybumper I'm not a pensioner and still don't agree.