To think free bus passes for the old should be abolished?

[Bumpitybumper]

Statistics show that on average wealth peaks at age 65-74 in the UK, why then do we give these people free bus passes? It makes absolutely no sense at all and is just an unnecessary expense. The idea that 'young' pensioners are a relatively poor group of people is completely incorrect and it only serves to enhance the already massive intergenerational wealth gap between baby boomers and everyone else.

From a socialist point of view means tested benefits are regressive since they penalise people on the margins and also give the well-off no reason to contribute to (what's left of) the welfare state. Child benefit (old-style family allowance) went to the mother on the assumption that she was the care giver but also on the assumption that however well-off her husband that did not mean she was well-off and family allowance was money that was unquestionably hers. Which is why it was universal. Ditto, bus passes, I daresay.

No, not abolished, maybe means tested. Although I think if you are going to driving test older drivers again, you should provide an alternative option for them.

I once got a bus with a friend into town and a paralytic group of old men got on with their trousers falling down, so at least it was entertaining. 😂

Thing is, they've found themselves able to "means test" child benefit, but somehow can't means test the free bus passes.

The answer to "the margins" is to think a bit deeper about the thresholds and tapers, so that we don't have the "cliff edges" and high levels of margin losses that we see at the moment which are entirely due to poor planning and foresight. It's not rocket science to tweak the thresholds to get rid of the worst regressive elements.

HMRC know the income levels of everyone these days, so it's not beyond the wit of the senior civil servants to tap into that data when determining eligibility for benefits. Like I say, they manage to use HMRC data when it comes to child benefit and the withdrawal of the personal allowance/tax free childcare for earners over £100k. They have income details from their UC and Tax credit systems, and earnings/pensions details from HMRC data (plus tax return data from those with self employments/investment income/property rental income).

So those asking for means testing, what criteria are you going to use? Are people going to be allowed a savings threshold like they are for claiming benefits? Will you want people prosecuted for fraud if they lie about their income and how many bank accounts they have to obtain a free bus pass?

Depending on what criteria is put in place depends on how much extra work this is going to put on Councils who I presume will have to administer this. How are they going to pay for the extra staff?

Just a few thoughts

Means testing child benefit was a mess. A household with a single earner on £80k lost it, one with 2 earners on £40k kept it, and it left high and dry women and children with a financial abuser for a father/husband.

The suggestions I have seen regarding means testing have been around linking it to pension credit. Potentially imperfect but it wouldn't encounter any of the issues you propose beyond what is already needed to determine who is eligible for pension credit in the first place. Free School Meals are often used as a qualifying benefit in a similar way for children.

Because almost everyone else paying to get the bus regularly is getting the bus to go to school/college or work. Pensioners can go into town, they can go on daytrips, they can go shopping, they can buy lunch. If it is hard for pensioners to get out and about they will sit in and not do anything. If you make it easier for them to go out, they will go on the buses (which will be running whether the pensioners are on them or not) and will then be able to spend money in shops and cafes.

So only people who get pension credit would be allowed to apply? There are a lot of pensioners who are so close to getting pension credit and are not well off at all but they wouldn't be able to apply?

I'm sure from a socialist point of view it is regressive but then I'm not a socialist. I am a net contributor and I don't want to pay more tax in order to receive universal benefits. I don't need a free bus pass as I can afford to buy my own tickets and I don't think I should be eligible for Child Benefit. We can't afford as a country to make everyone eligible for every expensive benefit. We need to prioritise and put simply, I shouldn't be a priority for these things. I would rather they went to people that genuinely needed. I wish more people shared my view but it's clear from this thread that a lot of people are obsessed with what they're entitled to and the fact they think they are owed a bus pass because they have paid tax.

Anything with thresholds works like this. If the threshold is inappropriate then this can be moved but it doesn't mean that the idea of means testing is wrong. Ultimately we have to accept that there has to be a cut off somewhere for lots of benefits otherwise the whole system becomes unsustainable and unaffordable. Have you seen our National debt and how much it costs to service it each year?

@Bumpitybumper I just think out of all the things a bus pass is good for pensioners and those who have cars or enough money won't use the bus much anyway.

We can leave a bit of help. I find it a bit sad that people would target pensioner bus passes.

Benefits in general need to be scaled wayyyy back. We now spend more on DLA and PIP than our entire military - and look how that has turned out for us over the last week. If I was PM I would end all non-means-tested benefits, halve PIP and DLA, and cap every household to a maximum of £23000 in benefits per year (to include everything). We are under a huge threat at the moment and the constant expectation of the public that the country should simply be a money machine for people with social ‘needs’ is short sighted and very blinkered.

I have heard it all on this thread.

One minute pensioners are so poor that removing a free bus pass would lead to them all dying in their houses with ice on their windows.

The next, they are so loaded that they are keeping the economy going by frequenting cafes and shops. I suppose you are going to argue that they can't afford the £3 fare to use the bus but can spend £££s in their destination on all kinds of non essentials.

I wouldn't be opposed to it being means tested but then there are other considerations such as it reducing the overall carbon footprint if less people are running cars unnecessarily- and if people are not working in roles that require a car then there is arguably more reason for them to utilise public transport. But then again that also depends on where in the country you are as not all areas are well enough serviced by bus or rail.

I think there's a balance in that where I live at least, there is need for improvement and investment in public transport services which means we need people to be using and paying for the service to generate that money by equally- they are expensive and the majority of people who use them are elderly and using bus passes or are younger and using student passes.

I'm not 'targeting' pensioner bus passes. I have a wider range of opinions about lots of taxes and benefits. Someone mentioned universal free school meals and fruit in KS1. I would also stop this! I'm not targeting little kids though or trying to remove the 'little help' this provides parents. It's about balancing needs and wants with a very limited and overstretched public budget. Of course in an ideal world everyone who wanted a free bus pass would have one and children would get free school meals throughout their time at school but we need to be realistic about what we can afford.

I agree with most of that. I think ALL benefits should be means tested, and I mean ALL. We simply can't afford to keep paying benefits to people who don't actually need them. It is possible to improve the means testing systems by changing thresholds, changing who monitors and administers them, etc. Instead of having several different quangos, i.e. HMRC, DWP, councils, etc., centralise it with say HMRC who has a complete overview of the claimant's financial affairs (pensions, wages, investment incomes etc). We were nearly there with tax credits being administered by HMRC but, as usual, the politicians and civil servants screwed it up!

Ok out of the two in that post fruit and bus passes I'd get rid of pretty much loads of other stuff before getting to that. And then I'd still choose to keep them.

Being old has nothing to do with being able to pay for your own travel!

Because almost everyone else paying to get the bus regularly is getting the bus to go to school/college or work. Pensioners can go into town, they can go on daytrips, they can go shopping, they can buy lunch.

It’s okay for young people to be in debt up to their eyeballs to get a degree and pay for the bus on top, and okay for people earning minimum wage to have £200 or more subtracted from their low income but not okay for pensioners to pay for the bus to go shopping, on a lunch date or a day trip regardless of income! 🤦‍♀️

Fine, that's your opinion. I might well think some of the things you are more willing to cut are important.

Everyone loves to say they would cut HS2 etc because they're 'easy' and there isn't such an obvious human cost. We actually need to cut far more than this though and there really aren't enough easy pickings. We very quickly get to the point where it becomes uncomfortable and there are big losers that pay a heavy price for cuts.

I have considered it

if you had considered it then you would realise that your own position as a young person is obviously and inevitably more likely to favour you towards seeing bus passes for elderly people as expendable. No one is capable of being perfectly objective and we all have a duty to recognise the potential impact of our situational biases. You have no insight into yours.

Furthermore, You have stated that you can of course imagine being old. The reality is you have absolutely no idea how it feels physically or mentally to be in your 70s, but you completely dismiss this as being a factor or important.

So far what we know about you: you are young, highly privileged (net contributor) and are lacking in self awareness.

When child benefit was first introduced, the vast majority of mothers didn't work, whereas that is hardly the case now. But that is certainly not analoguous to the non means testing of bus passes, which was never made on this presumptions. In both cases though, both the presumptions that those benefits were introduced upon (and in the case of bus passes continue to be applied) are long out of date.

Why is it necessary or helpful to attack the OP in these terms? And why do you presume, just because she disagrees with you, and has her own life experiences, that the issue is a lack of empathy or imagination?

Have you actually read all of the posts by @Bumpitybumper ?

There are many posters on here that feel the same as @ThePiglet 🤷

You don’t have to go to university!
a lot went to uni but ended up in basic income type jobs, where they never actually pay much back, if any, of what they borrowed. So who ends up paying for their 3-4 years of party time……yes, us taxpayers.