Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

[ThisPinkWyvern]

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

Trump is not gender critical.

Trans men are indeed women.

Gender critical feminists haven't harmed anyone.

Everyone who encouraged vulnerable people to believe that they can change sex has caused a huge amount of harm though, and many those who have actually been involved in providing "gender affirming care" should be struck off the medical register and thrown in jail.

HTH.

There have been lots of excellent posts so far but i agree with this one and its beautiful simplicity

Only read the first post. What an utter load of crap.

OP, you are definitely being unreasonable.

People on Mumsnet aren't responsible for what is happening in America.

Interesting to note that "trans" are always identifying from one to the other, maintaining the binary of sex while insisting sex is not binary.

If only that were true… Trans-ideology has led to an explosion of genders! My favourite is cupcakegender 😂

gender.fandom.com/wiki/Cupcakegender?so=search

They found that on a survey where a large number of people put that trans women should be allowed to use women's bathrooms. On closer investigation it turned our the responders thought it meant women who were trans rather than men who wanted to be women. This is why language is important

'Gender identity refers to how an individual experiences their "I". Nobody else but the individual him/ herself has access to a person's "I'. This "I" which we all have is the most fundamental experience of who "I" am. Absolutely nobody else can tell us how we should experience our sense of "I' because it is a subject and falls outside the domain of objective inquiry.'

This shows what a lot of complete cock 'gender' is. Your paragraph above would suggest there are about 9 billion genders on the planet. And 2 sexes.

And I doubt there are :millions ' of transgender individuals in the US.

Transgender ideology spread very quickly. Anyone who objected even slightly could find their careers trashed; they could be arrested or sued. By which I mean objected to the concept of 'gender identity' taking precedence over biological sex in all circumstances, and the concept of 'a woman is anyone who says she a woman'. Precisely because this happened so fast and so forcefully, there was a powerful right-wing backlash. It's the likes of Trump who were able to use genderist excess to get where they are. Transgenderism latched itself on to feminism and gay rights, and is now pulling them down with it as it crashes out. The worse thing - genderists know this, and blame feminists!

Love the way TMAM, becomes TMAW when you want to use it to bash us with. See how easy it is to switch from gender identity to sex in particular situations after all?

Let’s be clear, women can live as men if they acknowledge their sex in situations where it matters. Just as men can live as women ( whatever that means to them) as long as they acknowledge their sec where it matters.

This whole sorry situation could have been avoided if only the trans movement had chosen to campaign to be genuinely proud to be trans by acknowledging sex, rather than pretending to be literally, and in all situations, something they are not, and never can be. It’s a lot more psychologically healthy to tell people they are something they are, then tell them they can be something they cannot be.

this is a tricky one, isn't it

I've seen a few of these individuals in Austin, Tx. and they were easy to spot; short, small hands and feet, wispy beards

in this pic it's bloody obvious who are the men and who are the women

of course, if there are any that really do pass as men you'd never know

and so I think that if some women put that much effort into looking like men, so much so that they pass to everyone else as men, then its on them to use mens spaces and to not go into women's spaces where they are going to create fear and discomfort in other women

Somewhere this all went very wrong.

I can’t help but think there are other cultures who have successfully navigated men wanting to appear more feminine successfully and maybe we can learn from them.

Like the lady-boys in Thailand. Their society accepts them for what they are - males wanting to dress in feminine ways but they are still males and not trying to insist they are females because of how they choose to present themselves to the world.

Surely if in western culture we as a society can get to a place where it’s socially acceptable for males who want to dress femininely in public can comfortably do so - would this help towards solving the issues?

You don't know what you are talking about. Suicide rates went down where people were allowed to transition. Not living according to there GI is a big part of the trauma.

By ‘lived experience’ you mean the claim that an individual knows what it ‘feels like’ to be something that, empirically and evidentially, they are not. This is an area of philosophy, as well as psychology and biology.

A classic essay on the mind-body problem for you to read:
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cavitch/pdf-library/Nagel_Bat.pdf

Gender identity refers to how an individual experiences their "I". Nobody else but the individual him/ herself has access to a person's "I'. This "I" which we all have is the most fundamental experience of who "I" am. Absolutely nobody else can tell us how we should experience our sense of "I' because it is a subject and falls outside the domain of objective inquiry.

This right here is the root of the problem.

Transgenderism is acutely individualistic and does not take into account the fact that we live in a society.

"Women" is a word for a group of people. A group of people consisting of roughly half the global population. You are not a woman because you have decided you are one based on how you feel inside. You are a woman if you share the same characteristics that other members of the group share. The only characteristics that all women share are being adult, human and female. And female is NOT a "gender identity". Gender identity is made up nonsense that didn't exist until about five minutes ago, and most people do not have a gender identity in any meaningful sense. No, female means exactly the same thing in humans as it does in other animals. It means you are a member of the childbearing sex. You can still be female if your female reproductive system does not work properly and you cannot in fact bear children, or if you choose not to have them. But you cannot be female if you were born with a penis and are (or were potentially) capable of fathering children with your own sperm. Because that means you are male, which is the opposite of female.

Trans people's "lived experience" is completely and utterly irrelevant to the definition of "woman" or "man" because these terms are defined objectively, not subjectively.

I can listen to a biologically male trans person talking about their lived experience all day long but absolutely nothing they might say is going to change my understanding of what a woman is.

It is extraordinarily arrogant to redefine half the human population, who used to be defined as being members of the female sex, as people who have a particular gender identity that you believe you share.

Trans people are constantly saying that nobody gets to tell them how they identify.

Fine. Most people are not actually all that interested in how trans people identify, for the same reason that I am not all that interested in what my neighbour's favourite colour is or what takeaway my boss likes to get on a Friday night. Because it's completely irrelevant to our lives.

But by saying that a woman is a person with a female gender identity, you are actually telling half the world how we identify. You are telling us that a woman is something we choose to be, rather than something we were born at random. You are including us in your gender identity whether we agree or not. And then you are telling us that we cannot have any spaces or sporting categories which do not include you because you believe that you identify as one of us and we have no right to disagree.

Oh and by the way, sex cannot be changed. Having your penis amputated does not make you female. If an archaeologist in the year 3000 were to dig up the body of a post op trans woman, they could easily and correctly be able to identify it as the body of a male person.

I recently came across Alexis Blake on instagram. I totally recommend watching her instagram and you tube as a very balanced viewpoint from a trans woman.

she is very clear that she is a trans woman and therefore is a biological male and that this cannot be ignored. She calls herself a guest in a woman’s space- saying although she uses woman’s toilets, she does everything to to ensure no one is uncomfortable and that her ‘comfort’ should never overtake that of a biological woman in their space. She calls out the ‘trans activists’ who are just in for what she calls rage bait.

she’s made what I think are some really valid points - that she would want her passport to say Female to ensure her safety while travelling, but is important that being born a male is not erased - as it will be important for health care that health care professionals understand that she has male anatomy.

This is a good question.

If someone is experiencing pain, mental agony due to them feeling they are physically the wrong gender - this must be incredibly traumatic. Can you imagine what it must feel like to feel you have the wrong gender, the wrong body? I can’t as I do not feel that way, but what business is it of anyone else to make judgement. All of us have male and female chromosomes, X & Y. Whats interesting is in nature, gender is not rigid - animals/ species change or flip btw genders, changing their gender from birth. Some species have both male and female characteristics and sexual organs. (As do some humans). Some species behave as if they were the opposite sex - the diversity is present in nature. It’s nothing groundbreaking, strange, nor unnatural. We humans have created a rigid concept of binary gender - which isn’t based on facts. I can appreciate this is challenging but look to nature to see the diversity. As a side note, following the fact that diversity is entirely natural, why can’t we allow others to live their lives in ways they want - it isn’t causing any harm. There seems to be some hysteria about men in changing rooms - I can’t recall prior to a few years ago anyone really getting up in arms about this. I struggle with why all of a sudden this issue has become to talked about. It’s strange and has a whiff of scapegoating and finding ways to create “otherness”’ rather than wanting to embrace diversity and live together peacefully, accepting others as they want to be accepted. This is a useful article about diversity in nature. www.snexplores.org/article/explainer-male-female-flexibility-animals

OP wouldn't it be way simpler to codify "gender presentation" into legislation (even though I think it's sexist nonsense)

The problem with gender identity is exactly as this thread shows....your feelings about yourself are unable to be understood or defined. And many of us don't believe in it. We don't believe that clothes, hair and makeup make you the opposite sex. It's sexist, stereotypes.

If we just let people wear what they want (within reason) and protected them for that then all would be well.

Sex would still be the defining characteristic but trans people would still be protected. You can live your life, using the spaces that correspond with your sex but presenting as you wish.

we pretty much had that back in the 1980s

loads of men, especially in the music industry, wearing makeup, doing their hair, wearing skirts

no one ever thought they were women, including the men themselves

I was with you until you said people can change their biological sex. They can't - which is why medical people need to know the sex you were born with.
If people want to change their gender I don't care, it doesn't harm me - but if a transwoman goes into a hospital with an enlarged prostate and insists they are biologically female then that's just stupid.

It's not just America.

No one has to comply to a person’s philosophical belief.

And we have recently been shown just how meaningless the language that some people demand is and how it IS based on philosophical belief.

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves. There is no medical condition needed to be a transgender person at all.

Therefore the only commonality for people with transgender identities is that their philosophical belief.

Meaning no one needs to comply with another persons philosophical belief. No one.

No matter how kind or respectful that person who is trying to shame you into complying tells you that it is to use the preferred language, it is someone who is demanding that you support their own philosophical belief.

Pronoun demands are very harmful to the needs of female people and children. Accurate language is vital to ensure adequate safeguarding is being upheld and many other aspects of life. Including ensuring that children and women can properly describe the people causing them harm, including rapists, those who assaulted them, abused them and so on.

Any person declaring that preferred pronoun usage is harmless, seems to only be focused on individual people. They are ignoring or dismissing the collective harm being done.

You, general you, are totally free to choose to base your own language on using the sometimes centuries old established meanings of words and the established protocols of language that are based around sex. Not someone's identity.

Using preferred language around describing someone is based on someone else's demand to believe in their philosophical belief. It is purely up to you.

What you don't get to do, @ThisPinkWyvern is to shame others for not supporting your belief if they do not choose to. No one gets to infer / imply or to directly state it is ‘disrespectful’ in anyway to use accurate language that has commonly understood meanings amongst the majority of the population.

Expecting someone to use preferred pronouns over well established and accurate language is a way of demanding someone actively complies to your philosophical belief.

It really is that simple.

How is making someone agree to distort their own material reality to suit yourself ‘kind’?

Another way to consider the demands in language away from
established language is that those demanding use of pronouns is someone has stated using non-sex based pronouns, is that could also be said to be a political demand.

That a person who wants to use non-sex based pronouns is also making a political demand. Also the people who attempt to emotionally manipulate others to use those pronouns (even if it is not the person making the pronoun demand) are making political statements.

And what type of people demand or manipulate others to comply with a political demand that has not been democratically decided or decided by a democratically elected government? The more and more these conversations are had, the more that the nature of these demands for language compliance become clear. And there really does then need to be discussions around what political movements should be embraced in organisations.

What's your point? Trans people in the UK have more rights than any other group.

This!