Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

[ThisPinkWyvern]

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

Lovely misrepresentation of the linked thread, Hellofabore.

I was on it too, and I don't think so.

Yes, there is some real religious fervour within TR activism but even though I grew up in deepest-darkest Catholic Bavaria I can only remember a few people who were equally fervent about their Catholic believes. It's almost like the need to believe in something trumps every other consideration such as basic logic.

Oh sorry, I meant @H112

People don't change sex flippantly, I can not imagine going through all of the hormone process and painful operations.

A lot of trans identified males don't "go through ... the hormone process". A very, very large proportion don't "go through ... painful operations".

At the end of all of this, they have a body to as close as possible to the sex they should have been born as.

"the sex they should have been born as"? No such thing. Everyone is born in the body which developed as a result of biological processes, starting with conception, with sex being decided by the sex chromosome carried by the male sperm which fertilised the egg.

There's no "should have been". There's only "is".

At the end of all of this, they have a body that is as close as possible to the sex they should have been born as.

As close as possible yes - but it still isn't a change of sex is it. All the changes are only cosmetic. Superficial.

A Transman will never have a Prostate, produce semen, because they cant change their Y chromosomes to X.

A Transwoman will never have ovaries, a Uterus, menstruate, because they can't change an X chromosome to Y.

Neither can go back in time to live from birth in their changed sex even if the required chromosome change were possible. So they will never have the lived experience of being the sex they think they would rather have been born.

Faking it isn't making it.

Yes biologically correct sex determined by science. It doesn't mean they're not allowed to feel like they're in the wrong body, and that they should have been born as the opposite sex. It is obviously impossible for them to ever be the sex they want to be.

I cannot imagine the opposite

But you believe that someone born male, raised male and with male experiences can imagine how it feels to be female?

How can someone be in the wrong body is there a gendered soul and a sexed body and some good type figure whos job it is to pop a soul into embryo but sometimes they get it wrong? Why does this apply to sex/gender rather than those born with/without physical disabilities or age or ethnicity? Why can't I take to a wheelchair and declare that I shouldn't have functioning leg and I must have been in the wrong body? Or rock up to infant school and declare myself winner of the egg and spoon race.

You are saying that this person suffers from a delusion that can be alleviated with medication and surgery. OK.

”Born in the wrong body”, however, is nonsense.

And they shouldn’t try to continue the delusion by demanding access to women’s spaces - a sex which we all agree they can never be.

Yes, I also pointed out the different pelvic organs in one of my replies. I also didn't say they had the lived experience.

That's a category error. No one has any idea what it's like to be the opposite sex. How could they know?

Their understanding of the sex they 'want to be' is non existent. They have no idea if that would suit them better or not.

I think that this is a very important distinction here. They want to be.

Are you saying that they really are not born in the wrong body at all? That, in your opinion, they just really want to be the other sex and that there is no biological case for this gender identity?

It doesn't mean they're not allowed to feel like they're in the wrong body

Of course they're "allowed to". Just like I'm allowed to think they are wrong.

I was educated in a Catholic boarding school by nuns, by definition fanatics.

Some still practised bodily chastisement with hair shirts, excessive fasting and so on. It was a terribly unhealthy environment.

I should have said what they feel is the wrong body. Yes, that was ambiguous.

But they couldn't possibly know. They have no experience of being in another body.

Thanks for clarifying, and I think you did a couple of posts before anyway.

How do you think that people who are gender fluid fit into your way of looking at this? And the other 130+ genders?

Of course it bloody does! How can we protect a group of people like women from discrimination if we can’t even identify who we’re talking about, and if we allow anyone to identify into the group??

Woman: Hi, I’ve been the victim of sexism because…
Man: No, you haven’t because I’m a woman too, so that’s not sexism.

These trite, superficial comments really piss me off. If you’re finding it hard, try substituting another minority group for woman and then imagining anyone can identify into it?

Then surely their time, effort and money would be better spent on getting therapy to help with their mental health in accepting the sex they are, rather than going through all the trauma and physical danger in trying to achieve the impossible!

Repeating the mantra doesn’t make it true.

Sad, though, that you don’t care about the girls and women whose lives are affected.

Again it’s the twisting of language in an attempt to change meaning. Again it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

‘Lived experience’ - the opposite would be ‘Died experience’ .. doesn’t work does it, unless there is a known after life I’m unaware of. Absolute nonsense.

It’s a bit like the meaningless ‘my truth’. You mean ‘the truth’? No. Oh you don’t mean the truth, so it’s not true, ‘your truth’? Your truth is not the truth? ‘Your truth’ is therefore a lie?

A bit like ‘trans women are women’. Nope. Men who identify as women, are still men. In fact putting women in the word you use to describe men who identify as women, is also misleading. But I guess that was the point.

Etc. Gobbledegook purposefully used in an attempt to make nonsense meaningful.

Agreed, they obviously do not have the lived experience, as they're biologically a different sex. They feel like they should be the opposite sex in their mind, and cannot change their sex. Are you saying they have a mental health disorder, and need therapy? What is the answer?

@Helleofabore

I am not implying anyone on this thread was you at all. I made the point about the linked thread because the other poster referred to you. Not because I believed you were on the thread. Whether you were even on this thread was not relevant.

I am not obsessed with me changers. I notice patterns in posting just as others do.

I also encourage anyone who wants to name change to do so, just like I encourage anyone who wishes to post on MN to do so. MN is great, we should all be on here reading and discussing as much as possible about topics that interest us.

Hmm. I do think that's a bit shaky, particularly as you went as far as referring to me and helpfully linked the thread you had a beef with. That, technically, is sailing close to the edge of MN guidelines.

I really don't care what you encourage - we're discussing what seems to irritate you, and that appears to be name changes as you mention them so very often. And yes, I will post where I like and on what topic I like - thank you!

And this is the case that many clinicians who have been raising the alarm now for a long time have been trying to make. But WPATH and all the affiliates refuse to consider this as a serious aspect because they have said any exploration or attempt to have someone feel comfortable without the treatments is trying to convert the patient.

It is a huge mess.

Yes but it is still a man who has chopped his penis off and that man is still a man.