Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

[ThisPinkWyvern]

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

Perhaps this is projection from you then, “You are incredibly sensitive. And imagining I said things I didn’t say”.

@Helleofabore you have just used your own argument against yourself. Seriously . It’s ridiculous

@Helleofabore maybe you should take your own advice and stop censuring others lol. 😝

"lived experience" doesn't mean real or moral and doesn't come with any irrevocable rights.

Consider that it's not the first time in the US.

The "lived experience" of many who owned black slaves was brutally denied when they were given their freedom by people who had no consideration for the feelings of those who had grown up knowing that slave owning was their god given right.

I wasn’t censuring you! I was asking you questions and pointing out where I thought your points didn’t work. Because as I said and you also said, this is a discussion board.

To be fair @Cornflakes123 you said the post about not locking your house was irrelevant and a few posters have agreed that it is not irrelevant but you haven't responded to that.

@Helleofabore i wasn’t censuring anyone either. I agree with most of your points to be honest. I just don’t feel as passionate about toilets and they are always used as an example.

There are some transmen who pass extremely well (e.g. Buck Angel, Jamie Raines- there's no way I'd be able to accurately sex them if I didn't know they were female) and I do feel they should use men's toilets, etc, to avoid causing alarm to women in single-sex spaces. They are no threat to biological men, so there's no issue with them sharing spaces with them, unlike transwomen and biological women.

What is harmful to transmen is taking testosterone. In my opinion that would cause them far more harm than me saying that they are a woman

And if you read what I said, it doesn’t say that you did say it was all nonsense. I said you have the right to say that it is.

I hope that is clearer.

OP it's an interesting argument there. That transmen are women. I thought you didn't believe that?

What IS this "fear, terror and trauma" that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men)" are now experiencing? And how come there are so many when you just declared transwomen in real women's spaces to be extremely rare.

If this was a movie we'd call those plot holes.

So transmen (women) will have to use women's toilets. If you want that to be a hardship you're going to have to work on it a bit.

And to be blunt again. So what that you don’t agree with some of the discussion.

Don’t imply that some people are writing nonsense because you choose to think that if a law cannot be 100% protective it shouldn’t be campaigned for and discussed.

Toilets are a discussion point because everyone uses one or has in the past used a public access toilet. It is important to others so we discuss it. It is a weak argument to make in my opinion, because I don’t know any other law or policy that can be 100% prevented from being broken.

You implied it strongly. And you have made sarky comments about me to other people on this thread. I’m just trying to have a discussion as well.

But you understand surely that some women really do care? We know empirically that mixed sex spaces are less safe for women.

Those of us who don't care can choose to use mixed sex spaces. What we can't do is consent to men accessing female only spaces on behalf of those women who do object.

We also know, depressingly, that all of this is strategic. Access one space (toilet) and you make it easier to access another space (changing room). Agree that a man is a woman for one purpose (toilets) and you make it easier to argue for the same treatment another time (sport).

The list is concerning, isn’t it? It doesn’t mention the atrophy of the internal sex organs requiring complete hysterectomies. Nor that such early removal of a female person’s ovaries without appropriate future care has been suggested (I don’t believed proved but I could be wrong ) could lead to early onset dementia.

So what indeed

I didn’t say I don’t care I just think it’s absolutely impossible to police. And in reality trans men wouldn’t be welcomed into the women’s toilet. Toilets are such anonymous places in general it’s impossible to discern someone’s sex from a glance in the toilet.

That list was from the Mayo clinic promoting their services offering cross sex hormones so I would expect it minimises side effects as much as they can.

This is not true.
What type of men attack women in toilets then?

I think you are referring to the pre-meditated serious rapist type, who may or may not go in anyway. It's certainly easier in mixed sex anyway.

What about opportunists, phone recording etc.

There was a story only last month about the new mixed sex toilets in the clubs in Manchester (I think) where a woman was pushed into the toilet by a drunk guy.

The story of the girls at school who have boys in groups outside the cubicles ridiculing girls for having periods and pushing in the door.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/school-responds-after-girl-left-26489704

Buck Angel, yes. Buck has that gnarled look and is older. But Jamie Raines still looks female to me despite their height. Everything about their face and mannerisms and way of talking screams female at me. I imagine it would be even more so in real life.

However, most transmen are clearly female. The facial hair would mean a second glance, but it would be pretty obvious once you properly looked.

They can transition to another gender in law. Therefore whether you're saying gender is or isn't a real thing is a moot point.

If you have nothing constructive to say that helps people who want to change their gender, then perhaps best to say nothing.

It's standard practice for this group of posters. I'd just give up and move on for your own sanity tbh.

Of course Transmen are Women. Cutting your hair short and wearing jeans doesn't make you a man. Nor does have surgery to remove breasts and sew on a fake penis. If you don't have XY chromosomes you can't be a man. Just like transwomen are men.

I would imagine that in the very rare case of a transman passing so well that they were indistinguishable from biological men they would be sensitive enough to the worries of women (female lived experience before transition) not to use female single sex spaces. Perhaps gender neutral spaces would be more appropriate here.

That would make sense. It seemed to miss a lot of the symptoms that the detransitioners say they have.

I do wish an accurate list could be published widely.