Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

[ThisPinkWyvern]

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

You've been quite rude yourself @Cornflakes123. Asking you what appearance a "trans man" has was a "stupid question" according to you.

No im not suggesting that. Masculine looking women are different from women who have been taking testosterone and look like men. Are u saying they would be welcomed into a changing room with open arms ?

Most of them are about 5 foot nothing.

They "look like men" in a photo, but not so much in real life.

So how do we tell between a woman who just looks masculine and a "trans man"?

Wow that’s a broad sweeping generalisation.

Except - they don’t actually look like men. They look like women who have grown some facial hair and bound/removed their breasts.

We all know that. Just like a 6ft trans woman still looks, is built, walks like a man even if some oestrogen pills have given him tiny breast mounds and he’s wearing a dress. The idea of “passing” is a fantasy for all but a very few who have had extensive surgery (and not much can change height or build).

So what?

What laws and policies require 100% protection to be in place?

You, personally, don't believe it can be 'policed'? Great. It can't be.

But that doesn't make the discussion about what can be done 'nonsensical'.

And that doesn't mean that laws and policies should not be created so that male people can be excluded from these places unless they have a valid reason such as maintenance or entering to assist someone who is ill.

Female single sex spaces that did not require specific admission were never 'policed' in the past. Why the fuck do we need to do it in the future? Instead, what we need is for organisations in the UK to enact the EA2010 exceptions and for male people to respect the policies that exclude them and stay out.

And if they come in, they can be asked to leave legitimately without the threat of a hate crime being reported against them. And if they don't leave, then we can do what we used to do and tell all the female people in the space that a male is there, they can then leave and alert others and alert security and the police.

It is what we did in the past. Why should it be any different in the future if we can get laws and policies in place?

Except that we always used to. Its called the social contract.
The vast majority of people - male and female accepted and stuck to social norms. Thus the few who didn't stood out. People accepted the boundaries for the good of others.
Some people override the boundaries of others. We are suspicious of theses people.
People, mostly men, who persistently broke the contract e.g in pubs/clubs could be expelled and barred by the owners or management. In public facilities the council monitored and often closed, facilities which attracted such behaviours.

Who is bullying you?

People are asking you to articulate your opinion based on your statement that we are discussing nonsense.

It can't be policed with 100% efficacy, but it can be policed and women will be safer because of it.

Just as your house cannot be protected from burglary with 100% efficacy, but that doesn't mean you don't do what you can to increase its safety.

You can stand by your points all you want. This is a free society and it is a public space.

You have every right to state that it is all nonsense. And if you wish you can articulate why you believe this and expect to be challenged as we all expect to be challenged on whatever we post.

And we all have just as much right to call your statements in general nonsense if people are not personally attacking you. This is called discussion on a moderated internet forum.

No no! Keating... apparently mentioning how no laws and measures taken will be 100% effective in preventing harm is irrelevant.

When I was a young woman, I was often momentarily mistaken for a teenage boy because of my then appearance and occupation. In fact, when I met my ex, he thought I was a boy (and threatened to deck me for laughing at him).
My DD, much taller than me, well built and athletic, has also been mistaken for a male, momentarily. As soon as she moves or speaks, it’s evident that she’s female.

The number of women looking male enough to be mistaken for a man for more than a few seconds is likely to be vanishingly rare, as is the number of feminine looking men who could genuinely be mistaken for a woman. But they are trotted out ad nauseam as being unfairly picked on in toilets en masse.

I think things like men (trans women) using women’s changing rooms at work can and should be policed. Very difficult to stop anyone walking into a toilet regardless of whether they are a man , a trans man, a masculine woman or whatever else. It’s not something I feel passionately about. I do feel passionately that trans women should not be allowed compete in women’s sport, go to women’s prisons etc.

I was in Athens the other day and went to the National Archaeological Museum. There were 2 ancient skeletons they had found surrounded by offerings in their grave. Clearly stated they were both men. Not just about genitals, not just about hair, not just about chromosomes. Every single cell of a person's body is sex coded and this cannot be changed.

OP. I don't care.

You seem to have drunk all the kool-aid OP.

Hurty feelings and big word salads do not stand up against facts and science. If millions of Americans need psychological help because they think they're born in the wrong body that is not the fault of the well informed, clever women of mumsnet and elsewhere who hold firm boundaries and refuse to stand aside to allow their spaces and sports to be invaded, or their kids to be brainwashed.

I didn’t say it is all nonsense. You are incredibly sensitive. And imagining I said things I didn’t say

I, and others, have asked you repeatedly what you did mean. And what you thought was nonsense. You haven’t been able to do more than kept repeating broad statements.

Then you make vague statements about bullying and now say I am too sensitive?

your tone is bullying and your comments about me are sarky.

It is having one's lived experience denied that is responsible for the psychological trauma.

I do not deny anyone’s lived experience, I disagree in the interpretation of it. Our experiences are made up of feelings, emotions, perceptions. I believe, accept, am actively interested in someone’s experience of feeling uncomfortable with their own body, uncomfortable with social expectations, desiring to be part of a particular group, or whatever other actual feelings occur. I disagree with the conclusion that those feelings must be explained by way of a gendered soul, and that that internal gender undoes or overrules the reality of the observable, biological sex of the body.

A religious person may experience feelings of peace and strength when a pastor prays for them and interpret it as coming from god. As a non religious person I believe their feelings but disagree on the interpretation. Someone else might say that because they have previously driven while drunk and had no accident therefore it’s not dangerous to drink drive. I accept their experience, I believe that trip did actually happen, but disagree with the conclusion they’ve drawn. They were lucky that time but the chances of an accident are increased by alcohol. A friend might talk about their partner as the best, most attractive person in the world. I respect the love and attachment that leads to those words but I don’t agree with their literal truth.

Much like I wouldn’t usually argue over religious beliefs or whether my friends partner is the literally most attractive man in the world, I also wouldn’t usually object to a woman saying “I am a man”. But in any of those cases, if their belief is affecting laws, or if I am being compelled to actively agree with their interpretation, I will stand up for my own beliefs and my own rights. There is no violence here. There is no denial of the person’s experience, only a refusal to be forced to affirm a particular interpretation of that experience.

I have no interest in harming anyone but I will not apologise for believing something sensible.

Did u read my last comment ? I’ve explained thoroughly what I mean. I’m not wasting anymore energy talking about toilets now. Thanks.

Great. You have your own boundaries. They are yours and yours alone.

Perhaps you should hold off censuring others for having higher boundaries than you.

This is a discussion board. I’m entitled to express my opinion. That’s the whole point of a discussion. Anyone who disagrees with anything you say is immediately jumped upon and told they are wrong.