Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

[ThisPinkWyvern]

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

I think the house unlocked is a very good point, I'll explain it because you seem to think it's irrelevant.

Mixed sex toilet are know to be less safe that single sex but obviously a man can still enter if he really wants to assault a woman. It's just harder and less opportunistic.

Unlocked houses are known to be less safe than locked ones but obviously a locked house can still be broken in to by a theft if they really want to. It's just harder and less opportunistic.

What does a "trans man" look like exactly @Cornflakes123 ?

I’m not using it as a gotcha. I’m just making a point. I don’t believe women who look like men would be welcomed into female spaces. I think people saying they are welcome is fine in theory but it wouldn’t happen in reality. I’m not trying to catch anyone out. I don’t want men in female spaces either

Nonsense. I believe there are two sexes, female and male and that you're born one or the other and will remain that sex until you die. So i guess I'm GC. I completely respect that some individuals would prefer to be the opposite sex and want to dress and behave in ways they feel reflects their preferred sex. Unless this causes harm to others, as is the case when men who would prefer to be women insist on using female spaces, then I'm fully supportive of them. Please can you explain how someone like me has harmed women who would prefer to be men? Or indeed men who would prefer to be women?

But someone seeing a male entering a female toilet would have known that it was wrong and hopefully told someone, a member of staff, security guard, police or another male/group of females who could check it out. The point is - it stood out as unusual.
Now seeing a male entering the toilets is not so clear cut because 'transgender", who has the right to be there is blurred so people don't act.

@ThisPinkWyvern
One's sex is not defined by whether you have a penis or not, this is just an easy tell for whether a baby is probably male or female.

A man who has his penis ripped off in an accident isn't suddenly a woman.

I think the biggest shame of this whole trans debacle is just how much leeway and grace the T community have squandered.

People like us (left wing liberal women especially) used to be pretty sympathetic to your plight and would have been understanding and accepting.

Your fellow T chums and allies who fought to let men play women's sports, let aggressive men into women's prisons, permit and even encourage unforgivable experimentation on vulnerable children, and have allowed male entitlement to swell to new previously unimaginable cankers, they are the ones who have let you down.
Not women.

Now, do fuck off because we're all sick to the back teeth of your tripe.

You decided to base your argument on someone who is an extreme outlier for female height. So forgive us all for thinking you may not be the best person to judge what is true for the majority.

This is a very common transactivist argument used to make the point that transwomen should be able to use women’s spaces. It has the usual logic fail in using extreme examples to support a general principle.

”You can’t stop men going into women’s spaces because what about women who look like men? How can you tell the difference? It would be unfair on masculine looking women to be singled out in this way, therefore anyone should be allowed in.”

You may not be aware of this.

I’m not a trans activist.

What does anyone look like ? What a stupid question.

I'm making the point that a "trans man" often is just obviously a woman.

Also, it's a stupid question in response to your silly argument.

Obviously trans men who look like women wouldn’t be an issue. Obviously.

My point about locking the house is not irrelevant at all.

It is pointing out that taking all the precautions possible will still not prevent harm 100% of the time. Hence, all that we can do is campaign for the laws to exclude male people, and accept that some female people who have taken testosterone, as a choice, may end up choosing to use alternative solutions.

It is you who keeps doubling down about female people who have taken the decision to present as a male person entering into female single sex spaces. At this point, you should be able to articulate what the relevance is to your point.

In fact, it shows exactly the difficult situation female people face thanks to extreme transgender activism. That some could be harmed by feeling they have to self-exclude because of the decisions that they have made.

Then your statement doesn't apply, does it? @Cornflakes123

"However I still don’t think trans men would be welcomed into the women’s toilet"

And moreover, no woman who looks sufficiently masculine, beyond some undefinable point, should expect to use the female toilet. Is that really your position?

I'm interested to understand your point Cornflake, we know that women (and girls) are and have been harmed by males being allowed to enter women's toilets in the name of trans rights.

We know that the presence of male people in women's toilets makes many women uncomfortable, for example SA survivors or women who find themselves in distress in what should be single sex spaces for reasons relating to our biological reality.

It may not worry you if males are in women's toilets but you don't get to dismiss the impact on women or to consent on behalf of those of us who don't consent.

The existence of male presenting female people adds nothing to your argument. The problems that these women may now face is 100% the result of trans activism. They should not be being used as an excuse to let males in.

So you may not think you are an activist for trans or males rights but the argument you are presenting IS an activist argument.

All males out will solve everything. Social contract restored.

I didn’t say you were. I said you were using a transactivist argument, though you may not have realised it.

In my opinion we are all going around in circles about it. There is just no way of policing who goes into a toilet unfortunately.

And we all just give up.

That’s how the argument goes.

I think calling women's discussions on their boundaries about who should access female single sex spaces 'nonsensical' started a discussion that you don't seem prepared for.

Is it your position that masculine looking women should stay out of the ladies? Because that's what you are arguing, @Cornflakes123

i think there is no point of having a discussion when certain people jump down the necks of anyone who queries their opinion on the discussion. And I stand by my points. You can bully me down all you want I don’t really care

I have been using women’s toilets for over 40 years in many countries, and I’ve yet to see a single woman being asked if they are a man. For most of the twentieth century women had short hair; and many women have always worn trousers, no makeup, not particularly “feminine” clothes, etc. (visit many other European countries like the Netherlands or Germany, and you’ll see even more women just dressed in a unisex way with short hair all the time). Women pretending to be men are pretty obvious - their build, bone structure, facial features etc. are obvious. Their walk, demeanour, etc. is obvious. Trans men, whatever amount of T they are taking, do not look remotely similar in build or walk or features to actual men. Still photos that give that impression are heavily lit and often doctored but in reality (like with trans women), this illusion isn’t sustained in real life.

This nonsense about “bathroom policing”, and the idea that women descend on other women with short hair and trousers and “challenge” them in the Ladies, is a fantasy entirely generated by terminally-online US teenagers who have very little real-life experience. Just as the transactivists who seem to think having a short hair cut as a woman is “gender non-conforming” (do their eyes automatically screen out any adults over the age of 40 or something?), when in reality nearly every single woman born in the decades between 1920-1970 had short hair (take a look at pretty much any women in the U.K. over the age of 60). I’ve known plenty of women all my life who have short hair, wear trousers and no makeup, and not a single one has ever been mistaken for a man in the ladies’ loo. Trans men look like women with wispy facial hair and a short haircut. Not different to butch lesbian women, or sporty women, or any other women tbh.

ODFOD.

ThisPinkWyvern

Ah yes the pitiful whine of "you are denying my lived experience", by a group of people that have denied the lived experience of men and women (note no BS "cis" there).

This is a problem created by the TRAs and their allies.
If you hadn't tried to deny the rights of other people by putting yourselves first this wouldn't be an issue.

It used to be that transmen were transmen and transwomen were transwomen, but the blowback from your BS is of epic proportions and is of your own making.

BED, MADE, LIE IN IT.