Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

[ThisPinkWyvern]

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

That’s fine if you are confident asking people what sex they are in a toilet. A lot of people wouldn’t be comfortable doing this

That's remarkable since, even if they were Dutch they would be in the top 99.965 centile for height.

But obviously some women do fall into that centile and I see that it would be a plus if you want to pass as male, and a minus if you wanted to be recognised as female in some situations.

Edge cases make very poor law though.

Living in "fear and terror"! Do get a grip. I have employed two trans women in the past because of their ability to do the job. They were men living their lives as women as their choice.... but still men. Good luck to them. But "fear and terror"! Do get a grip.

It would all be fine if everyone just used the toilets/etc of their biological sex. Then no one would have to be asking/wondering/scared - but, of course, certain people refuse to do this, and that is why there are problems.

I know, it was strange. I wondered if there was some sort of hormonal disorder going on as well. But it is true.

doubt women who look like men would be “welcome” in the women’s toilets or changing rooms despite what people are saying .

So you do agree that men who look like men aren't welcome, then, I guess? Good-o, at least we can agree on that.

I do agree yes. But no one is going to stop anyone walking into any toilet.

I'm not proposing to. Just for it to be made crystal clear that women's toilets are only for female people.

Speak for yourself, I have done and I will again.

@Bigcat25 - can you share your source please, as I'm interested in knowing the figures?

So, what is your aim?

Are you aiming to point out the complications, that most of us understand to achieve what? I mean, many of us have had these discussions with female people who have taken testosterone already.

Is your point to tell us that we shouldn't try to ensure that we can legally exclude male people from all female single sex spaces, just because 'it is complicated'? And because you, personally, don't have an issue, so therefore 'you are alright Jack'?

Is your point to ignore that fact that we can acknowledge that some female people who have chosen to take testosterone and make it more difficult for some other female people, but not all other female people, to correctly sex them and that they might have to use a third space as many of us have been actively campaigning for years for?

The law can be used to deter any person who wishes to respect the law. Hence, women have been campaigning to get this legally clarified so that those laws can be enacted.

"But no one is going to stop anyone walking into any toilet."

No safeguarding measure is going to work 100%. This is a weak argument that has been overused. No one is going to stop anyone from breaking into your house, should you bother locking it?

So this person is an extreme outlier?

As Hellebore says, what's the objective in bringing this up? What impact do you think it should have on the 51% of the population who require female only spaces?

This!

Well before all this women at least had the ability to raise the alarm if a male walked into a women's toilets, and others could come to that woman's aid.

That social contract was destroyed by entitled men who pushed their way in, lied that it was their right to be there, and harassed and threatened those who objected. Who lobbied the government and lied about the law so successfully that many people and institutions don't understand what is and isn't allowed any more.Trans men, as is so often the case, are collateral damage to the wants of the men who claim to be women.

all I’ve said is that women who look like men are unlikely to be welcomed into female spaces. I don’t know why that has ruffled so many feathers on this thread. Your argument about leaving a house unlocked is irrelevant. Unless you are proposing all toilets are locked and a person who makes a risk assessment about someone’s sex provides a key to whoever they deem most appropriate to use the toilet.

Of course people can and do stop other people walking into toilets and other spaces which are and should be single sex spaces. And if someone doesn't feel comfortable challenging a person themselves, they can ask staff members to intervene on their behalf.

It worked just fine when I was growing up. If a man entered the ladies he would be gone pretty quickly.

You're missing the point, @Cornflakes123 . Because of social contract, shame and jeering would be felt by a man who entered a woman's space. We also used to have the ability to call the police or chase a man out. Now, if we called the police or attempted to chase a man out WE'D be the one in trouble. That is what's changed. We now have no right to police protection for our single sex spaces.

The type of men who attack women in toilets are unlikely to enter when a crowd are in the toilet I’m sure. Not all public toilets have staff manning them or are busy all the time

I have a vivid memory of a man being hauled out of the ladies in a department store by a security guard. I was like 12/13. Old enough to understand some of the context of what was going on.

Few medals?

The UN estimates it is over 900.

Exactly. Regardless, the appropriate number of medals that men should be taking from women is zero. Ffs people, at least pretend to care about women's opportunities.

I don’t know why that has ruffled so many feathers on this thread.

Yes you do, because you're using it as a gotcha. Entrance to women's toilets is about sex, not whether women are feminine looking enough or men are pretty enough.

This is a good point. However I still don’t think trans men would be welcomed into the women’s toilet.