Trans men are women according to Gender Critical Movement

[ThisPinkWyvern]

Under Trump's transgender policy, which echoes the ideology of the Gender Critical Movement, trans women are men and trans men are women. This view denies and rejects as worthless and baseless the lived experience of millions of men and women in the US who identify as trans. As a result of having their lived experience of themself ignored and denied by law, millions of trans men as well as trans women are now experiencing deep psychological trauma and living in abject fear and terror in the US. Many are trying to leave the country because they are so terrified.

The almost total silence of the Gender Critical Movement and it's supporters about the effect that it's ideology has had on those hundreds of thousand of women who self identify as men is deafening.It's whole argument about banning trans women from female public toilets and other ' women only spaces' is based on the argument that denying trans women the right to access these spaces is needed to protect the safety of women and girls. Given the fear, terror and trauma that hundreds of thousands of women( trans men) are now experiencing in the US, as a result of the government putting into practise Gender Critical Movement ideology, the sense of safety and well-being of hundreds of thousands of women has been devastated. This makes the infinitesimally small number of cases where women have been or ever would be assaulted by a trans woman in a women only space pale into insignificance by comparison.

In short, the Gender Critical Movement is directly responsible for harming the well being of hundreds of thousands of WOMEN according to it's own ideology.The damage done by implementing it's ideology makes a sickening mockery of it's claim that it's ideology protects the safety of women and girls.

When the number of men( trans women) in the US who are now living in fear and terror in the US is taken into account as well, the Gender Critical Movement and all those who support it are directly responsible for terrorising millions of people. It is impossible to claim that we are supporting women's rights and protecting the safety of women if we support the Gender Critical Movement.

On the contrary you sound confused. I doubt women who look like men would be “welcome” in the women’s toilets or changing rooms despite what people are saying .

So what's stopping you all campaigning for a third gender neutral option? If activists had done that from the outset, there wouldn't be this issue regarding single sex facilities now.

Do you have difficulty correctly sexing the people in this photo? Humans are really good at knowing each others' sex. Every transman I've met (and I've met more than you'd think) was under 5'3 and at most passed as a slight teenage lad. Women don't look like men, and vice versa, except in carefully posted and filtered photos.

They would be more welcome than men who think they look like women.
Masculine "butch" presenting women have always existed and societally the wearing of "male" stereotypical clothing by women has been accepted so its nothing really new. Having grown up with female socialisation they are much, much less likely to pose a threat to other women than men (whether wearing a dress or not).
Crime statistics bear this out.

I do actually. Agreed they look odd but I wouldn’t be sure.

You're right. A transman who actually passes will get questioned in women's spaces which is perfectly normal and how it should be for safeguarding purposes. They will have known this when they chose to take testosterone.

However, the majority either do not take drugs or aren't very convincing in the flesh (they tend to make very tiny men since the y chromosome is largely responsible for final male height).

Anyway, up to them. It doesn't mean that we can't have rules that allow access based on sex, just that a tiny minority might have to explain or use third spaces.

Comments about toilets are not 'nonsensical' despite what you think. They really are not and you telling women that they are writing nonsense when they are stating their boundaries.

You have a point about a female who has taken testosterone entering a female single sex space though as there will be some female people confused by their presence. ie. Those female people who cannot read the body cues that remain untouched by testosterone.

What we know from discussing this with female people who have taken testosterone is that they are fully aware that their presence may cause other female people distress. So they, even now, will find alternative solutions for their needs. They go far out of their way to do this and they plan ahead.

While theoretically, those female people taking testosterone should still be welcome to use the female single sex spaces, it may not work for all other female people. There is an acknowledgment that those female people have taken the decision to modify their appearance through testosterone treatments.

If male people had respected the needs of female people from the outset and not forced access for some male people into female single sex spaces, it might have been a different outcome by now for those female people. However, those male people did force access.

The point though is that no laws would be workable to exclude those female people who take testosterone from female single sex spaces. While there can be laws to exclude all male people above the age of needing a female parent or carer to be with them from single sex spaces. One can be legalised, but excluding female people from female single sex spaces is not really a possibility in any case.

Helleofabore · Today 08:24

While this is going to be a great thread to discuss the actual harms to those female people who have a transgender identity if they are treated as if their philosophical belief that they are male was material reality, I suspect your posts are actually more about leveraging those female people to validate male people with transgender identities.

Damned good post in general, as usual, Helle I think it dovetails with middle aged men insisting that little children are trans and should be fed puberty blockers and other mistreatments. As many have said, they have tried to use that to advance their position that people know and always have, from the earliest age.

And thats in a still photo. Add in movement and voice and its really easy to tell. You might initially read them as "odd" and it might warrent a second glance to be sure but (baring overt and deleberate aggressive behaviour, drugs etc) you are unlikely to feel threatened because you instinctively pick up the female vibe.

@Helleofabore Hayton thought that female power was based on breast size? That is hilarious! How? Was it women's power over men, society in general, or in women's internal hierarchy? Can you remember his username so that I can look for the thread? I could use a good laugh.

What I mean is that it’s nonsensical that women who look like men would be welcome in female spaces. Sorry but they wouldn’t. Not all trans men are tiny and weird looking

Only by your belief.

Biology : XY cannot ever be an XX. {Or vice versa}

You're just talking rubbish, op.

You can't change sex. Nobody can.

People make lots of assumptions based on photos, but real life experiences are totally different.

Gait, body language, stance, speech, even pheromones all contribute to our evaluation of whether someone is male or female. Almost no one 'passes' in real life.

Regardless, this is all fine if there's trust in the social contact. Unfortunately men who do not respect women's boundaries have made it clear that they aren't abiding by that anymore. It is sad if the ultimate victims of this are 'transmen', but that sure isn't women's fault.

I met a trans teenager who was 6 ft 4 and looked exactly like a teenage boy. It’s fine to think they would be welcome in theory. In practice and in reality they wouldn’t.

Transmen are women who identify as men.

Transwomen are men who identify as
women

When I was young (1980s) my mum had a friend who was over six foot tall, very broad and muscular and was very masculine in her dress. Worked rurally so wellies, jeans sweatshirts, short hair, no make-up etc. She was STILL read as female easily. Shes in her 70s now.

If, in the unlikely event, a transman was so well passing she'd not be accepted into female spaces I'd say she would know it was a consequence of the active decisions she had made and would actively look for third spaces so she didn't make anyone uncomfortable .... cos ... y'know ... female socialisation.

I do know that.
Hence XY can never be XX {a man can never be a woman}

XX can never be XY {a woman can never be a man}

Surgery and dress and hormones cannot make one change sex -that decision is made in utero by Nature- just as puppies are born male or female, or foals- or lambs.

They can politely explain if they're ever questioned. Hearing their voice would clear things up immediately.

Not by belief, by fact.
Transmen are biological females.
Transwomen are biological males.
Scientific facts.

Millions? Seriously?

By 'trans men' who are you referring to? Those who take testosterone currently, or any female who says they have a gender identity?

Either way, voices change but don't really 'pass' and if asked they can reply that they are female.

But as I and others have pointed out, those female people seem to understand the issue and they seek other arrangements. Plus, I would suspect it would be very difficult, if even possible, to legally exclude them from female single sex spaces.

So, what is your point that you keep doubling down on? What is your proposed solution?

It is bring gaslighted about the most fundamental aspect of one's being.

The OP @ThisPinkWyvern posted that at 03:08

It is. Absolutely. This is the entire point.
Imagine being a woman and having a man tell you he is now a woman because he says he is.

So what?

If asked if that person was a female and in the correct space, what would they reply? We have always been asked if we are in the correct toilet, I was asked a lot as a child. Yes, it was uncomfortable to be asked, but looking back, I realise that people were protecting the female single sex spaces.

We have had female people who have not taken testosterone but choose to present as male looking as possible tell us that they now thank other female people for asking. Because they recognise that this is other female people attempting to ensure that the spaces are kept as safe as they can make them at the moment.

It’s a very complicated topic isn’t it ? I’m not going to pretend to have the answers. And when I’m in the toilet I won’t be “politely questioning” people in there.