To think academic success is 90% of the time down to the parents

[TameSacha]

Sparked by a conversation I had at the school gates last week about how another parent wouldn’t be bothering with half term homework (which was making a collage).

I have DS8 and DD6. I read with each of them daily (they read to me and vice versa, takes about ten minutes per child), we do five minutes on their maths apps each day, and things like times tables songs in the car. We try to do at least one educational trip a term that matches with what one of them is learning about (think looking at and drawing a bridge or going to the local museum for Victorians, not going to Egypt for Egyptians). I read their syllabus each term so we can talk about the topics at home.

To me this is a perfectly normal part of child-rearing and supports the education they get at school, where underpaid teachers are on crowd control with thirty kids, some of whom don’t want to or aren’t able to learn.

AIBU to think it’s a parent’s responsibility to support their child’s learning outside of school?

I always found it really cringey at school when parents did their kids' homework for them, especially the creative projects where it was clearly designed for the kids to have fun more than anything.

It's obvious you're desperately living through them.

Let your kids learn and figure out and problem-solve themselves. That's what my parents did and I went to Cambridge and then started my own business.

Patting yourself on the back for taking your kids to a museum - how about giving them the facilities to learn to code and leaving them to it to create their own projects, far more useful and interesting.

I was a single parent to five. I barely had time to read to them, let alone help them with their home, work (although I tried). I encouraged a lot of reading, listened to them read while I was putting the baby to bed, etc, and answered any questions they had about what they were doing in school. They all did well in exams, four went on to university and really good jobs and the one that didn't go to Uni ran his own business.

I say they did it despite me, although they maintain I helped (which is very generous of them, but really not true).

You are not unreasonable but a bit smug. Reading to DC is normal, and stories they enjoy should be included as well as 'school' reading. Pre-school several picture books a day if possible, along with games, painting, cooking etc, to be continued as and when as they grow older (I used to read books like The Dark is Rising as a bedtime serial until DC were about 10). Helping with busy-work like a collage is unnecessary, just provide the materials and let them get on with it.

Oh ffs you are assuming it is easy or the right thing to do for every child.

because it isn’t at all. Parenting is about meeting the needs of the child you have not following some dictate from a school which caters to the needs of so many it caters to the many but not all

yes sometimes it is laziness but sometimes it is simply recognising that the amount of homework primary schools place on children is too much and some need home to be a place that they can decompress in and relax not be forced to do more work. I agree with an above poster for us it is imperative we separate out the school and home environment - doing so has enabled him to cope with school. Weirdly high school are much better with this than primary

my other child btw is very different and is working hard to do her gcse but went through primary without the ridiculous expectations they have now - it didn’t harm her (at grammar and aiming for all 9s) so maybe we should look at the ridiculous amount of homework we are giving them.

DDs grammar in year 7 - doesn’t really do homework

I always read to and with my daughter but we didn't do any extra work outside of that and her standard homework. Her primary school was tiny, 45 kids in the whole school and she got a good solid foundation in literacy and numeracy there.

We have always had horses and weekends and holidays were tied up with enjoying riding, her competing, and doing things like pony club camp which she loved and was great for her self esteem, resilience, sense of responsibility and many other things which are not taught in school.
She flew through GCSES and A levels at a normal state comprehensive and is on course for a first class honours degree this year. So no, I don't believe it is.

I’m a teacher and have three DC all of whom went to RG universities. A lot of the collage type homework is a total waste of time unless you happen to enjoy it. It really has no academic merit at all. I was supportive but also happy to cut corners on things that were pointless. FOMAP as we call it (Fuck off and make a poster).

Yes and no.

It can help hugely.

On the other hand, kids spend a lot of hours in school. There should be plenty of time for them to be getting the instruction they need there. The time they are not in school should, IMO, be earmarked for other things - time outside, time with family, time for free play, time for organized activities, time for free reading, time to help with household chores. etc. I also think that having spent 6 hours in school, you are not going to get the best out of kids doing academics after school.

Especially young kids under 12 - there are so many other things they should be doing. The idea that 6 hours isn't enough time to learn to read, write and do math, as well as read lots about history, science, etc, and do activities around that, is really insane. (And FWIW, I repeated a year at age 6, and my parents scrimped that year to put me in a private school. There were half the hours, 3 rather than six, compared to my previous year. We covered all the same subjects, plus French and religion classes, and an organized class with a teacher for spots and games. It really can be done.)

A collage over the holidays is just busy work.

Even with older kids, my dd who is 17 struggles with the homework at times. She is a good student, and she is very careful about being in bed by 9:30 so she can be up at 6 to get ready for school, as she doesn't function well otherwise. She's home off the bus at 4. What she'd like to be doing is spending at least an hour, and maybe two or three, on her musical instrument most days. As well as visit a friend about once a week, keep her room clean, etc. But then she has an hour of math and an hour of chemistry and a book to read, - somehow an hour and a half a day five days a week is not enough for those subjects.

I'm personally somewhat inclined to push back against a lot of that.

I agree and was very much like you, OP (my dc are 18 and 20 now). We would also do the visits to something that tied in with what they were learning about in school etc.. It should be normal to support your children in every area of their life. Even if it does mean doing a collage, yes.

During COVID however, we decided their mental health was the priority. Eldest did GCSE's that year. We made sure they went out every day. When the school called us to check in, I was honest and said that they had not done 100% of the homework, probably 70%. The teachers told us this was the right thing to do and they would catch them up (which they did, they were brilliant). I believe in supporting my dc, not pressuring them.

Both my dc well in school, both went to college. Dc1 is now in full time work (chose it over uni, didn't want the debt and was done with education). He moved to an area where he can regularly do a sporting activity that he loves and has a very healthy lifestyle. Sounds like you are a very supportive mum, OP.

So agree re homework. I also know that primary school teachers are heavily burdened both by paperwork demands and by poor behaviour, so I sympathise with them, too. The demands on state schools have got more and more burdensome, sometimes (often) because of 'inclusion' when such inclusion works neither for the rest of the children or the 'included' child.

Parenting and school expectations different for different parents.

Some think school is an education machine that requires no parental involvement. Put child in and educated person comes out the other end.

Other parents “support” child in various ways and time commitments. With other definitions of “educated”

And the children all different.

The research says, parental involvement improves outcomes …

I agree with you. It's showing your child that learning should be taken seriously and the teachers respected.
And people wonder why so many children don't bother to do their work and school refusal is through the roof- they've been shown from an early age that it doesn't matter, that gaming and playing is more important, that education is optional.
My uncle scoffed when sister and I were doing homework or revision at weekends as teens and accused our parents of hothousing us. That wasn't the case at all. We'd had the desire to do well and take pride in our work from an early age, from my parents doing much the same thing as you're doing now OP. No pressure, just making learning a fun part of everyday life. I wasn't surprised when both my cousins did poorly academically! I'll be copying the example with my children as they get older.
I remember enjoying making half term projects like collages. We'd have been doing crafty things, writing stories, making little books and pictures anyway, so why not do it about a school related topic.

Both. Parental involvement definitely helps yes but an average ability child isn’t going to get straight A*s at GCSE regardless of how much parental support they have. We’ve all got our limits but I do think parents involvement helps

Certainly no where near 90% and with respect, your kids are little. At this stage it matters not who can read first or write the best or add up the fastest because they all catch up and it evens out. Wait until they’re doing their GCSE’s then you’ll be like 🫣 as you realise their grades aren’t a reflection of your input and definitely not 90%

I agree that parental support and doing homework is beneficial, but certainly not 90%. I have two very different children who I parent equally. One looks like they'll still be struggling to read by the end of primary school despite best efforts (already more than half way through primary school). Struggles with basically every aspect of school and learning. We can go over something 100 times and they'll still get it wrong on the next go. They try hard but none of it comes naturally. Checked over but no indication of dyslexia or other diagnoses.

My other one looks set to be reading fluently before even starting school. I only have to casually mention something once and they retain the information, tell me it next time they see something to do with it, usually all in the right context. I answer questions when they ask and they like watching Numberblocks - that's about it at this age really but they were counting, recognising numbers and letters by age 2 at a level that my eldest wasn't getting a grasp of until at least age 5-6. They master physical skills quickly compared to my eldest.

Despite a decent age gap, the youngest looks set to overtake the eldest in many areas pretty quickly. I'm worried the eldest will pick up on this soon. But all that to say, I can give one all the help they need and they're not achieving academically, and the other can achieve things on relatively little input (I'm not even trying hard since they're not even at school yet). I feel like the eldest's teachers probably think I do nothing to help but I really do. The youngest's teachers will probably think I'm some pushy over-the-top parent that forced them to study before starting school!

The youngest is actually much like me and their dad - all the grandparents had us counting and reading before school without too much effort and I think they didn't understand why my eldest wasn't, and continues to struggle, but DC1 is just not built that way.

Previous posters’ children who went to grammar schools or tiny schools - of COURSE they are able to learn more than children at average state schools.

And of course it’s not imperative to do all of homework set IF you’re doing other enriching things or focusing on mental health.

But scoffing at the very idea of it, and not regularly reading with children, or supporting their learning, when there’s no extenuating circumstances, is lazy.

No. It’s not the minority.

When you look at the kids who aren’t doing homework - I work in a school - the minority have “lazy parents”. The 4 most common reasons are:

Parents work - all those kids in after school club until 6. Those parents aren’t in a position to do homework when they pick them up.
Child has SEN - self explanatory.
Parent has SEN - this is a major issue, SEN is often generational.
The parents don’t prioritise it. They prioritise clubs / hobbies / social time / family time / etc.

There aren’t actually many parents who are just downright lazy.

Also will flip it - if you overdo learning and the kids can’t escape it there will come a point where they disengage and will start to argue back. It’s a fine line between engaged in learning and overkill.

My message to you though - stop judging others and making assumptions about people and their motives.

Your post is naive at best and down right offensive at worst. You have no idea about other people's home life. It's lovely that you have the time and resources to support your child's learning but not everybody's home life is like yours.

I used to work in children's services and many parents are doing an amazing job in extremely difficult circumstances; poverty, disruption (homelessness, divorce), illness, sen, mental health issues, multiple jobs covering unsociable hours, family caring responsibilities, the list is endless.

Yes you can use your precious 15 minutes a day to read / do maths with your child or you can spend that time playing a game, going for a walk, having a chat or just a cuddle on the sofa. All equally if not more valuable to the wellbeing and overall success outcomes for a child.

Look outside of your bubble and think before you post about lazy parents and consider who might be reading your words.

Also - parental involvement and homework are not the same thing. Parents can be actively involved in their child’s education and development and completely sack off homework.

You’re right - all the things you mention are an important part of supporting your children’s education and part of being a parent.
There are so many parents that don’t value education in the same way though and this attitude may be generational, so is vicious circle.
Don’t congratulate yourself too much yet though - your children will develop their own ideas of what’s important before too long. Despite what you think now, your supportive parenting and good grounding may count for nothing if they decide they have other priorities!

Similar background and echo everything you’ve said.

Yes, parental support helps. But the school should be giving all the input needed to all the children to even up the disadvantages of poor parenting etc. Which is why I support explicit teaching. Homework, if any, should just be a revision of what was done in class that day with repetition and retrieval practice; not something that needs parental input, access to books etc.

Why is your son discussing another child's homework with you? Maybe he should be concentrating on his own work.

I don't think it is. My parents were heavily involved and i always did well in school. DH's single mum was raising 3 boys and working 2 jobs so had no time to focus on doing anything extra. In fact his school was so rubbish he didn't learn to read and write till 7!! He still ended up getting a degree from a good uni and his masters years later. I actually hit burn out at 30 from all the pressure i'd been under since a child (as did many of my friends) whereas he started rising higher at 30 having started later in life.

Also academic success doesn't always lead to life success. I know so many school friends who did well till A-levels and really struggled with the competitiveness, life skills and resilience during uni and also the job market. I think intelligence will thrive no matter what - it may not show up in school results but by age 30 it all evens out tbh as non academic people work their way up to the same level of seniority or careers.

Parental involvement is always a good thing but it doesn't guarantee success in later life, the same as a lack of it doesn't mean they're doomed to failure.

I think it is more about the messages the parent gives, not doing homework "because there's no point, can't be bothered" is very different to parents actively deciding that there are better ways to spend their time (assuming these ways are actually beneficial, like cooking together and fresh air, not just going on your phone and ignoring the kids).

It's how much you put in, rather than what it is specifically, that makes the difference and being alert to when you need to change it up a bit. We've had periods of putting in a bit of maths after school when DS was struggling at school, for example, but needs driven rather than ideological.

Our primary school allows parents to opt in or out of homework, but it has to be discussed and actively decided at the start of the year. When they first made it optional, it ended up that kids were being taught they could only do the easy tasks and give up on something with no consequences when it was a little bit hard - which was the worst of both worlds. It did show there was no one-fits-all solution.

In Year 4/5 Ds got detention because I didn’t help with his craft homework over the summer - I’m not sure if the teacher understood the difference between parent’s work and students work - but I had a chat to explain why I didn’t wish to see my child punished for my lack of effort. You’d have thought teachers would know but apparently not always.

It’s a weirdly bitchy thing for a kid to be doing!