I never thought I'd see the US aligning with Russia

[VolcanoJapan]

The US appear under Trump to be aligning with Putin and Russia more and more.

What was until recently referred to as our greatest allie is moving close to Russia in many ways, carving up Ukraine for Russia, trade deals with Russia.

It's bizarre.

Aibu to think it's bizarre or was this always coming when trump was elected?

So what do you propose then? The coward's solution of letting Putin have every part of Ukraine he wants, and betraying the millions of Ukrainian people still there?

Wars are bloody and difficult and expensive - everyone knows this. But waving the white flag of surrender now would mean that the last few years of Ukrainian sacrifice had been for nothing, and set an extremely dangerous precedent for the rest of the world. I bet China would probably be very happy to know their impending invasion of Taiwan would be unchallenged by the wider world. A country no longer has a right to defend itself when the war goes on too long or becomes too expensive, right?

Honestly, this would be a huge historical mistake, and anyone supporting Trump's bullying of Ukraine should be ashamed of themselves. But hey, I guess it doesn't matter much when it's thousands of miles away, does it? Who cares what Hitler does after Poland? Who cares what Putin does after Ukraine?

Same. I thought I'd be doing a lot of eye rolling at Trump's antics when he became President this time, but couldn't ever imagine the utter shock and horror I'd feel of what has, and is, unfolding, and the volume of pro Trump posts here on MN, and the amount of lies from the regime believed plus the sheer batshittery championed.

@RetroTotty yep - although in all fairness I don't think itsall 100% bona fide.

I loathe the orange narcisstic buffoon However there are a fair few who seem to be very single ( or maybe a couple of issues , so will agree with him on the 'women' stuff ( despite the fact he's a complete mysoginistic in many other ways to women) - ones who hate anything a bit woke /diversity related ( and I'm not particularly obsessed by it either)

It seems because he thinks like they do on this they don't give a monkeys about his worrying tendency to fancy taking any country with assets he has his eye on, going along with the worlds other James Bond villains or getting rid of any securities/rights etc that affect millions of American women plus of course creating Dubai mark 2 in Gaza. - and letting Israel get off scott free -

It's easy to say well they got what they voted for-yep but just under half that voted didn't vote that way - the same with Brexit here- and I think a fair few that actually did vote that way were just thinking mainly domestically about their wallet , not thinking he fancied taking on anywhere he fancied and sucking up to Putin-

If they didn't want to back Ukraine financially- his first port of call should be talking to Europe about this , not licking putins boots -Putin clearly has 'stuff' on him

I read Tom Burgis's Kleptopia book around the same time that Russia invaded Ukraine. Trump basically squandered all the money he inherited and is now just the frontman for 'his' business empire. His name goes on the buildings or the golf courses but the money comes from Russian and Central Asian oligarchs who got their money through criminal means. These men hate democracy and state assets. All they care about is seizing resources for themselves and are ruthless about doing this.

I don't exonerate the Democrats from creating this terrible situation, either. They spent years prioritising the crazier aspects of identity politics and anointed the least credible presidential candidate imaginable. Now we are stuck with a spiv as leader of what used to be the free world. Great.

So as unpleasant as it is, and obviously horrid to zelensky if it's true felt, no one sees this as a negotiation tactic?

They think trump should either carry on like Biden did or go head to head like sumo wrestlers with nukes?

@EsmaCannonball I don't doubt there is some truth there at all and I wouldn't be at all surprised if trump is broke but if it's all so obvious and documented why didn't anyone call it out in the campaign?
Mr Trump can we talk to your pal ivor about x donation what does this mean?

I don't think that is the best way either. So I completely agree that giving in to Putin should not be seen as the way forward

Continuing an unwinnable war should not be seen as a way forward either.

This conflict simply put at its current stage is purely just a war of attrition. Destroy as much as each others kit, equipment and infrastructure as possible. No one wins... well apart from the companies set to gain when all this kit and equipment needs replenishing.

Both sides need to somehow put stubbornness to one side, use their bargaining chips (held territory) and agree to at least a ceasefire whilst dialogue starts.

If we kept on the same road as Biden and Starmer wanted us on, we would be at more risk than the US and any of their assets are... they and the countries they are in at least have a capable defence with multiple Patriot batteries and Anti-aircraft artillery. We have nothing protecting our land based assets.

That is really interesting and explains a lot. I will give it a read. Though it sounds horrifying

It's almost as if they aren't real.

What you're saying is the exact repeat of 1940.
This was was winnable if US and Europe supplied enough weapon in 2022-2023.
It could still be acceptable if NATO accepted Ukraine today and placed troops on the ground.
As is, it's a clear message that any country, any territory is up for grab to russia, us and china. Do you like this brave new world?

Edited to add - fall of Ukraine (and what Trump is pushing for is a fall) is a fall of the entire foundation of democracy and freedom of this world and move to the rule of the strongest. This is what's happening now.

Why the hell not? Are you insane? Obviously not European

But we, Europe and the US didn't act quick enough in 2022. US wise, that is on Biden and the left.
We are now left with the cards we are dealt, which is an unwinnable war.

NATO aren't going to accept Ukraine. If they were going to, it would have happened already. They've been on the cusp for the best part of 15+ years.
As it stands, there are at least 6 nations who have shown opposition to Ukraine joining NATO (from 2024, so pre-Trump mk II - Biden) - US, Germany, Slovakia, Slovenia, Belgium and Spain.

As is, it's a clear message that any country, any territory is up for grab to russia, us and china. Do you like this brave new world?
In some ways, territory up for grabs by anyone, has already been shown in other previous and ongoing conflicts across the world;
. The withdrawal from Afghanistan and handover to the Taliban
. Turkish incursion into Northern Syria and Northern Iraq to get rid of the Kurds
. Iranian-aligned Houthi rebel overthrow and takeover of Yemen
. Russian and Turkish proxy war in Libya
. Pretty much the majority of the Sahel and the land grabs by the many different Islamic Militia groups
. Nagorno-Karabakh (sp) and the territory grabs/tiffs between Azerbaijan and Georgia
. Ongoing issues between Pakistan and India regarding the status of Kashmir

A large number of these haven't gained the publicity, adequate military assistance, public backing for support or traction for additional resources and funding like Ukraine has.

Oh now that's VERY interesting.

A thing I spotted during Covid was a strange confluence of musicians of the 70s and 80s repeating standard anti-vax conspiracy lines.

I don't mean, coming up with their own personal mix of beliefs – in which you'd expect a bit of variety, and for which you'd expect to see some previous history in their very public lives.

But bam! straight into parroting to their huge fan base the identical lines Joe Public was getting from Facebook.

I know that one of the ways influence operations work (whether the product be soap powder or politics) is to heavily target someone who is an existing influencer in an unrelated area, in the justified hope they will bring their large following with them.

Covid was a gift for disruptors to run influence operations, because it offered so many different possible cracks into which to slip a knife and wiggle.

Yes, continue fighting until Russia withdraws. And provide the ongoing support Ukraine requires to achieve this aim - which, as all credible experts have spoken about, wouldn't be very much longer anyway.

Can you say where you've seen that it won't be much longer?

I mostly follow world service on commentary and haven't picked up this, the opposite pretty much, but maybe you've read something else?

Reading back the commentary on WS is closest to @BigDecisionWorthIt pp

The idea that Trump is “confusing” Putin is laughable. Trump is Putin’s useful idiot.

@Mielikki perhaps, perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle
Trump has a massive ago I can't imagine he wouldn't be aware of putin tactics.

@PerkingFaintly yes indeed -in both cases the artist concerned has responded back personally with the 'my page , my views' - and when there's people saying 'well it's free speech' -they have responded correctly and said yes it is - and works both ways!!

Trump’s massive ego is far more likely to cloud his judgement I would have thought.

The orange nutcase has fired his military leaders. I heard he's replacing them with Fox news presenters.

What do we all think the impact of these events will be on the UK over the next 5 years or so?

Well he promised to remove woke-ism from the ranks and I suppose that includes the top ranks

It's extremely worrying.

I just hope we can keep Farage from power. He's so clearly part of the same cabal.

He does not intend for there to ever be free and fair elections in the USA again.

He needs to gut the military.

Going to be interesting to see which starred generals he picks to replace them.
One name I've seen is going against tradition and getting a general out of retirement.

That dig at Hegseth kind of falls flat though. The guy is a retired vet himself with 9 years worth of service and tours of Iraq and Afghan.