Private schools extra holidays - how does this not harm outcomes

[Eranie]

Looking at 3 private schools around us at the primary level.

School 1 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
3 weeks Christmas
1 week February
3 weeks Easter
1 week May

17 weeks total

School 2 -
8 weeks summer
1 week October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

15 weeks total

School 3 -
6 weeks summer
2 weeks October
2 weeks Christmas
1 week February
2 weeks Easter
1 week May

14 weeks total

All these schools seem to be very good academically. All have similar length school days (8.45-3.15 in infants, 8.45-3.30 in juniors). The one with the most holidays caps class sizes at 16 and guarantees a TA present at all times in infants and over 50% of the time in juniors. Others seem to cap class sizes at 20-22, not sure if a TA is always present.

AIBU to wonder how the school with 3 week end of term breaks is keeping academically which so much less time? Does anyone have any insight on this?

I don’t work so we can handle the long breaks and we live the facilities better at the school with the longer breaks (further out of the city so has more land, therefore tennis courts/pool/better playing grounds. However I’m concerned that with longer breaks they will fall behind academically?

There's very little talk of failing schools and good schools, they're all pretty even

This depends where the catchment.. There are many areas where the good schools are massively oversubscribed. Poor performing schools are very much a thing sadly.

This!

My son's school is like School 1. He has long-ish school days (08:35 - 16:00) and lessons are intense. He also has a lot of homework, so the holidays are useful to decompress.

The academic day schools in London absolutely are. They can be extremely selective. Many have something like 8 or 9 candidates per place for the 11+

As I understand it, even the non-selective London prep day schools work a year in advance of state school, this is so pupils cramming for common entrance/11+ get two shots at year 6.

Such a cliche ..theres a huge number of children with SEN in independent schools, that’s why their parents send them!

There are no fines at all. Inspections are a thing, they don't seem to be too stressful. Teaching recruitment and retention is good, teachers in Ireland seem to be far less stressed and far happier than the UK ones I know. Pupil mental health...well it's hard to say, but they do wellness in primary school and yoga and lots of talking about feelings, in secondary they have lots of supports and a whole year called transition year between junior and senior cycles (aged approx 15) where they do minimum academic work but lots of work experience, team building and enrichment classes. There's very little talk of failing schools and good schools, they're all pretty even. Very few go private. There are still quite a few single sex schools and of course Irish language medium schools

@HiptotheHopp that's really interesting to read. I wish Bridget Phillipson would see it! What about working parents/childcare?

I think in some, yes. It varies. DS2 is at a non-selective private primary and it doesn't do much prep for 11+ exams, but does move at pupils' own separate paces. That's easier to do in one class of combined years 5 & 6 with two teachers and 20-odd pupils.

@beardediris

I’ve been travelling today and have just read the front page of a local newspaper where a state secondary school had a no warning inspection and have had an appalling OFTED inspection.

Did make me think about my current private school where I work, and how this would never happen under ISI.

Also made me think of another private school where I worked, where ISI gave a glowing report yet (this was in Early Years a while ago) - OFTED gave a not great report - and the school tried to hide it. Then OFSTED stopped inspections, and the school was relieved it was only ISI from then on.

And in private, just some very basic things like : how phonics are taught, reading schemes etc seem very muddled and ‘old’ Led by the ethos of whichever new head of that department comes in - which seems to frequently change and ‘throw out’ how things have previously been done. In state, it seems more cohesive.

@LondonLawyer I’d say both the private schools I’ve worked in have a reputation of being quite elite, one of them considered particularly academic. The academic one went from being selective to now ‘gently selective’ (reality being they are desperate for bums on seats and are very unlikely to turn anyone away). Now with the VAT hike - they are both need pupils - but don’t want to give the impression of struggling. One school I saw advertising one of their year groups as ‘full but limited spaces in x class ’ - but I know that that’s not the reality, it’s a marketing ploy.

Mine has 17 weeks holiday. Longer school day 8.40-16.00 to compensate.

Depends on the school I'm sure @TwentySecondsLeft - the two girls' schools I went to are now getting well over 80% A*/A grades at A level, and almost 100% GCSEs at 7-9 (A grade + in old money) so they are probably still pretty selective.

My older son's comprehensive school is (obviously) not selective, but gets very good results for a non-selective school - about 30% A*/A grades at A level.

Family help is common, but there are options. I have breakfast club and after-school at a crèche, it's not exactly cheap but its not ridiculous either. I could use the private after-school in the school itself but it doesn't suit. Childminders are common. School is definitely not childcare!

Primary is 8.45 to 1.40 for the first two years (or similar times) from age 5 and then til 2.40 for the rest of primary. Kids start secondary at 12 or 13. They're often 18 almost 19 finishing school these days, if they do TY year which most do.

They don't specialise much before college either, leaving cert is not like a levels, it's more broad. It's a far superior system to my mind.

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@LondonLawyer

My experience of private is to age 7.

My outside perception is that senior looks better - at certain schools and if you choose carefully. I think there is probably more demand for senior, so therefore more schools could and would be genuinely selective.

I think numbers on role, staff turnover are good indicators. The glossy ‘look at our results’ - have they been spun to highlight something/cover something else.

A staff member who works at the senior dept at our school says it’s pretty cutthroat with staff being turned out if they don’t get results. I also know the parents tend to take their children out for 6th form in the belief that they are more likely to get an Oxbridge place via state application. How that could then impact the schools finances/success at 6th form, I don’t know…

Family members in a different area have got their children into excellent universities via private and this has worked particularly well for one with additional needs/smaller class sizes. Although saying that - the parents both got to Cambridge via state!

And I think Ofqual are currently investigating things like giving extra exam time in private…

I think - could be wrong - that private primary / secondary schools tend to be different in that way. Some primaries might well be selective, but I think tend to be less so compared to secondaries.

opposite of this? Far more likely to see selection at secondary than primary. Many all through schools have no entry requirements at primary but require some assessments for entry to their senior schools.

Isn't that exactly what I said? "Some primaries might well be selective, but I think tend to be less so compared to secondaries." Some primaries are selective, but less so compared to secondaries?

I think there is also a huge argument for happiness. Yes, as parents we want to give our children the best opportunities. But if that results in enormous pressure, trying to squeeze a square peg in a round hole, a career that causes tremendous stress, that a big house and excessive amounts of money = the only way to be successful - then that’s wrong.
How to cope with the world - and the changing world is an huge lesson, how to relate to people.
And I think, as an earlier poster stated that’s largely down to parental support.
So happiness, sense of fulfilment, how to navigate the world can be achieved in both state and private.
And I think the long holidays are huge plus as it attracts staff (it’s the reason a lot of teachers go for private!) and the children often do amazing things in that time off.

@TwentySecondsLeft - ‘The glossy ‘look at our results’ - have they been spun to highlight something/cover something else.’

I don’t really understand your point here? If a school gets great results, they get great results and will publicise that. They wouldn’t be ‘spun to cover something’?

I guess you could say ‘25 kids got Oxbridge offers’ type publicity might not be the whole picture (a bit less impressive if 100 kids apply). But A level/GCSE results tend to be given as percentages, so that’s even more transparent.

Something that I am curious about is to what extent this means there is genuine competition or in practice is it that most kids are applying to half a dozen schools plus grammars so actually although all of those schools have 8/9 applicants actually the vast majority will get in somewhere

My kid's state primary in Ireland isn't so dissimilar to those holidays, plus the class sizes are a bit smaller, and they have assistants in most classes (and external teachers for specialist subjects) - although we do pay a pupil contribution of about 400 eur/year to support that (not compulsory)

They are just really good at what they do - they have good materials, they have engaged teachers, and that reflects back from the kids, admittedly, 95% of the school is Irish, so language barriers aren't a big issue, but the school has a reputation for providing good support for SEN, and disabilities so there's kids with a range of abilities in each class.

My kid's primary does a thing where they do two year's material in one, then they do it again the next year.

So in 1st class, they'll do the material for 1st and second class, then in second class they'll do the same again.

They say it gives them a better chance of stretching the kids who need stretching, and revising content for the kids that need revision - it does seem to work for them, the kids all seem to do well on it.

There's also a bit more willingness to put children down if they need a bit more time - when we moved here, that happened to my youngest, and also to a friend's child who they felt just needed a bit more time.

Length of school holidays is the very last thing I would be concerned with. Private schools have longer days, smaller classes, give more homework etc. The environment feel and ethos of the school will influence the academic outcome more than teaching time.
If it’s primarily the academic outcome of a private primary/prep school you are looking at, then the school will have numbers of children progressing into selective schools. If it’s a primary up to 18 school, then exam results at GCSE and A Level and pupil destination will tell you.
Pastoral care and support is really important for academic achievement. Sports, arts, music, drama provision are also important- top universities like a confident rounded candidate.
There is a well known highly selective girls grammar school I know of (and I know some of the parents) that has a fantastic academic record and is fiercely difficult to get into to) but it has a hellish reputation for competitive behaviour amongst pupils - and consequently eating disorders.
Pastoral care, building self confidence and healthy behaviours/ways of thinking will influence everything else.

Sorry - misread, clearly shouldn’t be posting past my bedtime

The teaching and behaviour are better.