To ask how we stop dangerous cyclists

[Everythingisnumbersnow]

Why do the most dangerous ones wear those stupid little headcams too? YOU'RE the problem, guy.

Registration plates won’t solve dickheads. We have them on cars and people still clone them, put covers on them so ANPR cameras can’t pick them up, use screws or tape to make them read something else etc. We also can’t identify any murderer, stabber, shooter etc by number plate, yet somehow we do occasionally manage to bring them to justice. Most sporting equipment, diy equipment and gardening equipment is deadly in the wrong hands. Some people on bikes are dicks. The vast majority are not. So many of these problems are city specific for starters (there’s next to no pavements or traffic lights where I am, and many traffic lights there are are part time signal just in rush hours, and the only zebra crossing is in the supermarket car park). For the hard of thinking this is not the only reason I don’t jump lights or ride on the pavement, I don’t do those things because they are wrong, but EVEN IF I wanted to, I can’t, because the opportunity is not there, so why do I get stuff thrown at me and abuse yelled at me ‘because cyclists run red lights’. When there aren’t any on my regular routes. I’m not kicking cars just because someone close passes me once, but this is what law abiding cyclists face daily.

Believe me, law abiding cyclists want shit ones to be better as much as everyone else, because it is fleecing our own totally unrelated ride safety, but we think the better way to do it is by better infrastructure, better facilities for everyone and getting more people on bikes and out of cars (so many traffic lights in London are because of volume of cars that actually they wouldn’t be needed at all if you could bring traffic down to a sensible level). The number plate brigade are the stick method that won’t solve wankers, because they do not give a fuck when committing crimes in cars and they won’t care on a bike either, but will probably put off a percentage of the law abiding, pushing them into cars too and making the congestion and overall road safety worse due to greater number of motor vehicles on the roads.

Well, obviously I don’t think I’m talking bollocks but I can see the idea of cyclists being registered, licensed or insured certainly appears to evoke strong emotions in some quarters.

As for my ‘unlicensed’ status, yes, I am a pedestrian, though I’ve cycled in the past. There hasn’t yet been any suggestions to bring in licenses for pedestrians but who knows? You may operate as many vehicles as you like - but it doesn’t necessarily make you a good driver so I’m not really following your argument there.

So far, I have been a passenger in two car crashes, the first of which I was critically injured and left with a permanent disability. I am well aware of the dangers of cars. At the same time, I’ve regularly felt threatened and startled by cyclists careering past me at speed on pedestrian only pavements. In some cases, it’s been sheer luck I wasn’t hit - had I been hit, I suspect I wouldn’t have been as badly injured as I was in the first of the two car accidents I’ve been in, but someone upthread has posted details of a number of fatal cycling-pedestrian accidents.

You’re right that everyone should have the right to be able to use the roads and pavements safely, even if it’s just a pedestrian “ambling” about, So yes, in principle I’d like to see a licence/registration scheme for all vehicular users of the roads and pavements but I do appreciate there are other elements to consider. Just not sure I understand the fury that such musings seem to provoke. Not every cyclist is a licences car driver (I wasn’t) and not every licensed car driver has good road sense or would make a good cyclist.

A few things I witness as a pedestrian every fucking morning: dickhead motorists jumping red lights - even the pedestrian crossing in front of a police station!, dickhead motorists parking in cycle lanes - even those outside schools!, dickhead motorists parking on pavements so that pedestrians have to walk in the road, dickhead motorists not indicating/indicating right while turning left or going straight across junctions, dickhead motorists completely ignoring road signs (when is a righthand turn only lane not a righthand turn only lane? when a dickhead motorist feels like it), dickhead motorists not understanding how keep clear/box junctions work, dickhead motorists turning into side roads on the wrong side of the road ... Motorists kill and injure thousands of people - thousands! - every year in the UK (collision/pollution). They make the gun lobby look rational and altruistic. Let's stop indulging motorists and start holding them accountable for their actions before moving on to cyclists.

Looking at a thread quoting statistics above, I have checked them and indeed, you are more likely to be killed by a tree than a cyclist. Which is very interesting 🌳 🚲 🤔

As they say, if you want to kill someone and get away with it, use a car

That’s true enough. The driver who nearly killed me and the poor bastard he crashed headfirst into whilst speeding I think escaped with points on his licence.

Fury? you're the one putting a death wish on cyclists

Let's stop indulging motorists and start holding them accountable for their actions before moving on to cyclists.

Or maybe we could do both at the same time? 🤷‍♀️

And, no @Redpeach, it's your lack of comprehension skills leading you to think that.

I’d like to see a licence/registration scheme for all vehicular users of the roads
Dear god, we should be making it easier and safer for people to get around on foot and on bikes for the sake of our health/the environment/public finances etc, not requiring kids to have a licence to cycle to school. Motorists are the problem but we're conditioned to prioritise/indulge/fund them. See "Motonormativity - Wikipedia" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motonormativity.

Not all deaths and injuries caused by drivers are included in the official statistics either! First, the incident must have been reported to the police, and whilst this happens for the vast majority of KSI's, they believe that a considerable proportion of non-fatal casualties are not reported. (They know this because hospital and insurance data suggest a far greater number.) Second, as you also cite for cyclists, incidents on private roads and land, service stations, car parks etc. are not included.

Also, your examples of deaths/injuries being inaccurately recorded because of time delays also applies to incidents involving motor vehicles. So, official statistics under-represent these cases too.

Honestly, whatever way you want to spin it, cyclists really aren't the problem. Interesting graphic included below to illustrate this (I hope it works!).

Edit: Can't seem to include the graphic, so here's the link: https://road-safety.transport.ec.europa.eu/sites/default/files/2024-03/collision_matrix_2024_update.png

sorry it is from between 8 and 10 depending on your source for the UK

That would take into account the cycling proficiency at 10/11 that I posted about.

This is useful https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/whats-legal-and-whats-not-your-bike#:~:text=Pavement%20cycling&text=The%20law%20also%20applies%20to,to%20increase%20this%20to%2012.

Basically cycling on a pavement is always against the law but it’s allowed up to age 8 in Scotland due to their laws and 10 elsewhere in the UK due to the age of criminal responsibility.

I noticed how much safer and quieter is was around DS’s schools (infant then junior) during bike to school week due to the reduction in children being driven to school. Children should be encouraged to cycle to school, not have more barriers put in place.

Eh? Think what?

a cycling proficiency test is great, but won't generally save a kid from a dangerous driver

Yes they do exist somewhere.

North Korea.

Which I think tells you everything you need to know about their feasibility and purpose.

but it will teach them road safety skills.

When ds started cycling to school (at about 8), I initially cycled with him. I would wear a high-viz jacket and have my front and back lights on, even in daylight. The number of times, when I was cycling home back up a steep hill, that cars would drive straight across the road (ignoring the "Give Way" that they were supposed to do: I was on the main road so had right of way) right in front of me and I'd have to do an emergency stop

I did occasionally ponder not stopping and going into the side of the car but the sad fact is that even though I was in the right and they were in the wrong, I would be the one that risked coming off worst

When we started letting ds cycle on his own, we got him to go a slightly different route, even though it was slightly longer.

Cycling proficiency tests should be mandatory. For motorists. They should also have to ride a horse on a road, cross a busy junction as a pedestrian and navigate a pavement full of parked cars with a pram and/or a mobility/visual impairment. Might give motorists in their high-speed metal onesies a tiny insight into what a fucking danger they are to all other road users.

Lets not forget time on a moped and motorbike.

I’ve always said reversing an HGV round a corner should be part of the driving test (you’d need some sort of off road facility somewhere) to teach car drivers about how long vehicles take roundabouts/tight corners and how the different parts of the vehicle move in relation to the axles. An understanding of the challenges of deferent types of road user can only be helpful!

And the more people who cycle, the better behaviour will be. Where it's dangerous to cycle, the only people who will do so are the daredevils, who behave predictably. Where infrastructure (and driver behaviour) means that it's safe enough for your grandmother to cycle to bingo, or for parents to take their toddler to nursery in a bakfiets then people will ride appropriately.

I'm not arguing that motorists aren't a big problem - they cause way more deaths and injuries than cyclists do.

I'm simply saying that cyclists are also a problem. Why on earth can't we deal with both problems?

I'm sick of feeling terrorised on pavements by cyclists, having near misses with them on the pavements (and on the roads), and having them ride randomly through red lights when I'm on a pedestrian crossing.

Motorists jump red lights too, but they tend to do it just after the light has turned red, so you can anticipate when they're going to do it. But cyclists jump the red light at any time during the red phase, while pedestrians are on the crossing. And they often come out of the shadow of a big van or lorry, so you don't see them until they're almost on top of you.

On the junction I mentioned earlier, the one I crossed every day on my way to the station to go to work, cyclists would shoot past me on the pavement as I walked towards it almost every day, sometimes two or more in the space of a few seconds. I occasionally saw cars go through a red light just after it had gone red. But I never, ever saw a car go through a red light randomly, long after it had gone red, while pedestrians were on the crossing. And yet I saw that done many, many times by cyclists.

Yes, if a car had gone through red while I was legitimately on the crossing it could have killed me.

But over nearly 20 years of walking past that junction on my way to work, the biggest danger to me on and around the junction was from cyclists, not from cars.

I think you're right.

I visited Copenhagen a few years ago and was struck by how well-ordered the provision for cyclists was, and how well-behaved they were. The cycle lanes at the side of the road were separated from the main part of the road by a kerb, so cyclists had a safe lane in which to ride. I only saw one cyclist riding on the pavement while I was there, out of the hundreds that I saw.

There seemed to be a better culture of cycling there, with ordinary people feeling comfortable riding on the roads, and a general expectation that everyone would behave properly.

The reckless, selfish attitude prevalent in part of the cycling community in the UK seemed to be absent in Denmark.

Let's stop indulging motorists and start holding them accountable for their actions before moving on to cyclists.

It's possible to do both at the same time.

I remember hearing the same argument from a housemate when I was at university nearly 50 years ago. She was a socialist, and when I said the trade unions ought to be fighting for women's rights and equality in the workplace, she said it was more important to fight for working men's rights first. Women's rights could be dealt with after that. 🙄