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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
70
Lovecatsanddogs · 09/02/2025 16:02

I am sorry we must be living very different lives if you think with 100k debt and 7/8 years of training, they can afford to do unpaid work.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 16:34

How is prioritising UK graduates racist ? Many are not white, and some are not British. But they all trained here, understand the NHS and have taxpayers money invested in them. Is every other country in the world racist then ? Because they ALL prioritise their own graduates.

Anyone with 2+ years in the NHS should be treated the same. So any IMG could do trust grade jobs for 2 years and then apply for training on same footing as UK graduates. But all jobs should be filled first from the doctors we already have.

Unpaid just made me laugh. Is their rent going to be free too, and their utility bills 😂. Or do some people assume all doctors gave rich parents. I'm a teacher.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 16:35

We need doctors. We train enough doctors. We should employ those doctors in the NHS.

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 16:47

I don't see how an argument in favour of prioritisation like this poses any issues. It's the sensible thing to do. All other countries do it. People that disagree perhaps don't understand or are possibly part of the gravy train.

I do however empathise with IMGs outside the UK being fast tracked with exemptions, etc to UK positions by those with lucrative side hustles. Have you seen how much they are having to pay? After being charged extortionate amounts of money to secure these posts, they are indeed missold a dream!

The working conditions are tough for IMGs who move here. Despite making significant contributions, there appears to reports of many feeling exploited within the NHS. They have found that they cannot say no to long working hours, difficult NHS conditions and the demands of superiors. However, much has been sacrificed to make the move so they put up with it. To prevent further exploitation and brain drain from the countries that need them this should stop. If there are enough doctors working here including IMGs, prioritise them instead of new recruits from abroad.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 16:48

@takeittakeit I think you've read into our posts in a very different way to what we are actually saying. All our DC work very hard and do not expect anything. Except maybe a job. They know training might take a few years and are happy to do Clinical fellow jobs, and would welcome the extra experience. But they can't get these jobs as so many bots applying (your jobs seem to not be experiencing this but other consultants are).

All they want is a fair go. They've worked as medical students through Covid (often as HCAs), worked in an NHS that has meant they are very often the only doctor on wards, especially at night (not everywhere is London ) and have accepted all this. This year will be the first year of major doctor unemployment- believe it or don't. It's happening. Sadly. No one takes any pleasure in this. We all want a functioning NHS. But if we are not going to employ the doctors we train them as needsmore says, we may as well close all medical schools and just rely on IMGs.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 16:50

@OneMorePiece it should not be controversial, but for some it seems to be. Do not understand why.

I'm sure there is money involved somewhere 🤷‍♀️

PlopSofa · 09/02/2025 16:51

Also @takeittakeit other countries prioritise their graduates first and up until 2020, the NHS did the same for U.K. nationals.

Why is it so wrong to put your own country’s people first for jobs?

Thats not racist, it’s normal practice across the world and makes economic sense if you’ve spent money teaching and investing in them.

Wooleys · 09/02/2025 17:02

What I object to that has come out on this thread is that these should be given as a matter or right because they have done Fy1 and FY2 and worked hard.
I find the racist undertones reminiscent of Brexit

Very strongly agree with this. Indeed this is precisely what I meant when I referred to a minefield.

As for self-interest.... what we see on this thread are a small group of self-interested parents of F2s with an extremely narrow focus. A few for-the-greatest-goods are thrown in, to try to hide behind some level of altruism for the taxpayer, but this is a thread oozing with undisguised self-interest and only thinly disguised racism. The reason I referred to the GMC comment is because all responsible bodies will be aware of the dangers.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:03

How do you know what colour any of us are ? You are calling us racist without any idea !

Wooleys · 09/02/2025 17:05

Again, completely irrelevant mumsneedwine.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:06

Good to know 99.99999999% countries operate a racist employment system. Currently only the UK who doesn't.

Always the cop out. Pull the racism card. Majority of IMGs polled by BMA agree with prioritising UK graduates. But hey, we on here are all just bigots.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:06

It's just so beautiful

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
Wooleys · 09/02/2025 17:06

And to be precise, the previous poster and I were both describing the thread as having racist tones, not particular individuals.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:07

Hope we can all agree on its beauty

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
Wooleys · 09/02/2025 17:07

I was wary and merely mentioned a minefield. The other poster was bolder than me so I thought I'd put my hand up too.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:09

It really is just perfect. Grey and rocky. And keeping this thread trending

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:09

If not yet signed and feeling like it will help

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfcyIlbYdzz1bVJuSnRweFuBdqqkWNEG6Tyvv_KjR7mGsG-cA/viewform

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 17:11

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 16:50

@OneMorePiece it should not be controversial, but for some it seems to be. Do not understand why.

I'm sure there is money involved somewhere 🤷‍♀️

Whatever the reason is, we should not let accusations of racism stop us from uncovering issues which are possibly contributing to the problems facing affected young doctors.

After all, it's important these issues are resolved as soon as possble. It's in the interests of the continued existence and proper functioning of the NHS, its patients and the NHS staff already working here regardless of whether they are local or foreign.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:14

@OneMorePiece v much agree, it is not racist. Many IMGs who have been here a year or two, having paid a fortune to get here, also can't get jobs. Because the influx from abroad has snowballed. Not better doctors, but have better tick boxes, some of which may not have involved any work at all.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:16

Everyone with 2+ years of working in the NHS should be on the same footing. And anyone else gets jobs after them. Simple, non racist, ensures doctors who know the NHS get first go at any job.

CherubEarrings · 09/02/2025 17:21

takeittakeit · 09/02/2025 15:49

I do not disagree that there should be jobs for doctors who want to work and voted for the motion.
What I object to that has come out on this thread is that these should be given as a matter or right because they have done Fy1 and FY2 and worked hard.
I find the racist undertones reminiscent of Brexit from people who do not understand how short listing or recruitment are done in the NHS.

These are the same people who would have advocated for transparency and anonymised fair impartial processes for jobs - blaming the old boys network, white patriarchy etc and wanting them removed. The latter should not return!

Now we have clear targets and competencies and anonymised selection to eliminate bias and favouritism - these same people are now saying this is unfair.

Now we have the blame on London and unpopular deaneries - the blame game does not stop for some people on this thread. There have never been enough training numbers and places on rotations and that is still the case but the ingenuity of many or my friends and colleagues to get where they wanted to be, has and is amazing. They have moved counties, countries, diversified, joined industry, taken un paid jobs, research and still got where they wanted to be via different routes.

if you want to progress in Medicine then that requires graft there is no short cut for that and has not been for a long time. Sometimes it appears unfair and it is sometimes it is not.

Patients want competent doctors who have been trained, tested and made the mark required - they do not care of the prestige of the Edinburgh rotation, London rotation, the unpopular rotation out of Scunthorpe, Bognor etc or the route people took to competence.

Racist? UK is the only country that does not protect its medical graduates.

Still struggling with your assertion that you are a doctor.

suburburban · 09/02/2025 17:24

PlopSofa · 09/02/2025 16:51

Also @takeittakeit other countries prioritise their graduates first and up until 2020, the NHS did the same for U.K. nationals.

Why is it so wrong to put your own country’s people first for jobs?

Thats not racist, it’s normal practice across the world and makes economic sense if you’ve spent money teaching and investing in them.

In all honesty aren't a lot of medical students in the UK from ethnic minorities anyway.

Why are we not putting our own Students and graduates first, it just doesn't make sense

HappyHolidai · 09/02/2025 17:25

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:09

I cannot get this link to work. Would very much like to read the document and potentially sign. Are you able to try a new version or something, please?

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 17:27

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:14

@OneMorePiece v much agree, it is not racist. Many IMGs who have been here a year or two, having paid a fortune to get here, also can't get jobs. Because the influx from abroad has snowballed. Not better doctors, but have better tick boxes, some of which may not have involved any work at all.

Yes, surprised why there are people accusing posters concerned about doctors already here of being racist. Are they not worried about the plight of IMGs already working here?

Since Wooley has had such a keen interest in this thread, why does Wooley keep denying what we said all the way through? Our stance is that all doctors, UK and foreign doctors already working here, should be prioritised ahead of IMGs outside the UK. It's not a thread calling to redress the balance for just the few DCs of posters here, but all doctors, including UK based IMGs who are supporting the petition.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:38

@HappyHolidai does this one work

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfcyIlbYdzz1bVJuSnRweFuBdqqkWNEG6Tyvv_KjR7mGsG-cA/viewform

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