AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

[Needmoresleep]

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Yes, can generally agree. From the perspective of a consultant with long standing experience, I would welcome your insight on this:

On your point about selection, not sure if you are aware of this recruitment drive that the NHS appears to be involved in? Not sure if and how exactly the NHS is involved, but came across this online.

What do you think of applicants coming through this recruitment drive or similar?

https://goocampusuk.com/mrcp-mba

I would welcome your opinion or anyone else's on how this scheme works within the NHS process? The current NHS recruitment system, as I understand it, was designed to make it fair and equitable to all applicants, regardless of their background. Schemes like this are unfair if they are potentially fasttracking applicants from overseas who are prepared to pay such extortionate prices. It's mostly wealthy overseas applicants that can pay up to £32000.

To a member of the general public, it looks like some new IMGs (outside the UK) are potentially getting an advantage while UK MGs and UK IMGs already in the country, are having to jump through higher and higher hoops.

@Wooleys you really have a fixation with me that is a bit unhealthy 😂. You seem to want to personally attack me every day 🤷‍♀️. But it obviously makes you feel better about yourself so feel free to continue (hopefully this is not an expression you can take the wrong way again). Nought so weird as folk.

Again, we reiterate, previous years recruitment cycles have no similarity to this years. Double the number of applicants, same number of jobs. So if your DC is an ST1-6 they have no idea of what it's like this year, so why compare ? If you really can't see the difference I'm a bit flummoxed.

Wasn't agreeing with Whooleys. Sorry was meant to quote someone else

Yes, generally agree. Interesting posts.
From your perspective as a consultant with long standing experience, I would welcome your insight on this:

On your point about selection, not sure if you are aware of this recruitment drive that the NHS appears to be involved in?

Not sure if and how exactly the NHS is involved, but came across this online.

What do you think of applicants coming through this recruitment drive or similar?

https://goocampusuk.com/mrcp-mba

I would welcome your opinion or anyone else's on how this scheme works within the NHS process? The current NHS recruitment system, as I understand it, was designed to make it fair and equitable to all applicants, regardless of their background. Schemes like this are unfair if they are potentially fasttracking applicants from overseas who are prepared to pay such extortionate prices. It's mostly wealthy overseas applicants that can pay up to £32000.

You see, to a member of the general public, it looks like some new IMGs (outside the UK) are potentially getting an advantage while UK MGs and UK IMGs already in the country, are having to jump through higher and higher hoops.

Onemorepiece 😮

I'm not remotely interested in you personally mumsneedwine. I thought the reverse was true due to the multiple snarky comments thrown in my direction but.... even you have to admit that it's funny that you thought international conferences had to happen abroad 😂But on a more serious note, given that you've misinterpreted data (please see previous thread) and have completely misunderstood the 'international conference' points thing, it does prompt the question of how much else has been misinterpreted or misunderstood by you. None of this is in the least personal - but getting to the facts is essential, since a lot of undue alarm is being created here which is extremely unfair.

On the separate question, absolutely the only reason I described my DC's experience up to specialty registrar was because of this request by Needmoresleep.

Your consultant son is clearly an example for young doctors to follow. What did super-curricular was he able to demonstrate. Did he enter competitions overseas like other successful medics I have known or was he good enough that he was able to focus on the UK.
And does he intent to spend his whole career in the NHS or is private practice part of the ambition

Had Needmoresleep not very specifically asked me, I wouldn't have volunteered anything. However it would have been rude to have given no reply.

It's back. Been a long day

And mumsneedwine I really hope that you understand those two points because you do seem to meet almost all comments which don't follow your preferred script with an unpleasant comment of your own (or rock photo!), so just to be very, very clear:

1.You have utterly misunderstood the international conference requirement on the application for training posts.

2.Needmoresleep asked for info about my DC which might have any useful pointers for current/ next year's applicants.

Additionally, DC understands everything to do with the system this years including all the various controversies and Reddit moans and groans etc, because he's part of the medic community and because he's helping the F2s with their applications. He'll obviously give advice to F1 DC if requested too.

😂

Do you know, even I'm capable of saying oh yeah, totally misunderstood. Really not sure that yet another photo of a rock dims the fact that you have misunderstood a very easy to understand fact which you've been railing against. Not holding your hands up does undermine your credibility in terms of how up to speed you are on the application front as well as just, well, the generally accepted point that if you get something so clearly wrong, honestly - just say oops. That it's only a big deal if you're not big enough to say fair cop.

Needmoresleep on the conference front (unless criteria are changed for next year) you might like to be aware that national conferences (ie only open to UK delegates) count for exactly the same number of points as international conferences (which as has now been clarified can actually happen in the UK).

1,2,3 and 4 already exist and have done for some years in various formats.

That anyone can say we are not giving F2s careers advice, interview practice, helping them on their portfolios and presentations does not understand one iota of training resident doctors - all your children have assigned educational and clinical supervisors who do this.
There are lunchtime protected teaching programmes that do this.

None of us are blase about how hard it is, how much money you invest in your own training along the way. So much is provided in house as part of hospital education - if you choose not to take advantage of it then that is your fault.

I spend hours every week listening, supporting, guiding, reading, making suggestions to our resident doctors much of it in my own time and if anyones children are saying that these structures of educational and clinical supervision and guidance are not in their hospitals they are simply not true. Even the smallest DGH hasthis set up.

So it's all made up ? Nothing to see here. All the doctors are moaning about nothing. Can I just ask you why, on social media, in newspaper articles and radio programmes, doctors are talking about this so much ? Why even Wes has acknowledged it's an issue, along with the BMA and GMC.

You disagree it's an issue. We think it is. Neither of us are going to change our minds so it's pointless debating. We will continue our fight. We will continue to try and keep the doctors train so they have jobs, of any kind, as doctors.

I do not disagree there is an issue there has always been a mismatch between doctors wanting jobs and numbered training posts. Different times have different cuases but if you have given up in January getting a job for August and are not even applying then you are not helping yourself.

For someone to come on here and suggest - we give F2s interview practice, teach them how to set up their portfolios, career advice, relocation expenses etc shows absolute lack of understanding on what goes on in British hospitals every day of the week. It implies that every one above F2 does not give a damn about the careers of resident doctors which is absolute rubbish.
Why do i see registrars CT trainees, consultants running interview sessions, giving advice on jobs places pathways on a daily basis

Mumsneedswine - you have moved position on who should automatically get a job from the start of this thread, thrown out insults on subjects you quite clearly have not done your research or, or understand how medical training is set up, delivered or managed. Foundation trainees have more input, support and inbuilt development than any generation before them- that pathways / numbers /jobs etc may not have matched the changing demands of medical care is not their fault or necessarily the fault of the planners as they did not have perfect foresight. No one predicted the decrease in need for cardiothoracic surgeons when stenting became the rage and less surgeries were undertaken. There were trainees who were ltierally pulled off their programmes and give not a lot of choice in what they could do - take it or unemployment.

The more insulting you have become the more you have degraded your stance. Your daughter has not applied for a post - her choice, it may have been futile but she does not know. She has not applied for any stand alone jobs - so does not know if she would have got one. Sensibly she has made a decision to go to Oz for a year, grow as a doctor and then decide.

Please educate yourself on the process before sending out uneducated insults.

Interesting that the "consultant" asked their F2s and two have a training post.

Which specialty? Interview dates are only just coming out for training posts and offers come out in March.

This has already been answered some way back.

Could you explain the reason behind your inverted commas? If you want to say something which is within the guidelines say it and if it's not within the guidelines don't.

I personally find it very useful that a consultant is coming on to this thread and explaining the system to those who have been shown time and again not to have a clue and who are now backtracking madly (not before time).

I am suspicious I'm afraid and always have been. Wooleys you are not a doctor so any experience you have is second hand.. What specialty has given offers this early? Would like to fact check.

What specialties were mentioned in earlier threads?

Check back on the posts of the poster you are suspicious about. Not for me to intervene.

I'm pretty clued up about the current system tbh. Not sure that anyone could pull me up on anything I've said so far about the system that's factually incorrect :)

Plenty of interviews are now out but offers are tbc.

No specialties were mentioned that I can see. You intervene all the time so why break a habit?

Unfortunately you don't know what you don't know. Hence the howlers that you regularly post. Comedy gold.

I probably don't need to know much more than I do about the system. What I know is sufficient.

Howlers to you perhaps - your prerogative obviously - but very clearly make sense to other people including currently employed senior hospital doctors, so I'll defer to their judgment rather than yours.

Happy to bring some cheer into your life!

Another classic! Keep them coming.

I think there is only one person on this thread that has said that they are a senior doctor that you think agrees with you.

You have spent days trying to derail this thread while saying one of your DC is an F1. If they are why are you not worried that even the supernova F1 DC you have described may struggle? .The other DC a reg presumably in a run through specialty so no worries there until they are applying for consultant posts.

CherubEarrings your bar for what constitutes a classic post is clearly significantly lower than mine.

Um I meant senior doctors I'm currently sharing this thread with. Several of whom have opinions too forthright to repeat on here but I can certainly say that they are strongly in agreement with my views and that their watered down input has been very useful.

I'm not going to say more about my own DC but no I'm not too worried about my F1 and no you're quite wrong, not a run through specialty - through that last set of exams/ interview though so all good atm, just busy.

Can I just add what nonsense to try to suggest I'm attempting to derail. This is AIBU and I'm merely taking a different position. If you don't wish to engage with it, then please just pass on by.

Of course they are Wooleys! Interesting that you have so many senior doctor friends but never trained or worked as a doctor. Very unusual.

Not unusual at all in a family with doctors and a circle of friends rammed with doctors. We just aren't 100% doctors, there's the odd token other profession slipped in. What an odd comment!

Obviously at my age you'd expect most doctor family or friends to be senior.

Sorry I am finding your posts becoming more and more surreal. Concerned that your hoards of senior doctor friends have the same opinions as you (if they exist) and so little empathy for the plight of their junior colleagues.