AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

[Needmoresleep]

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Also Needmoresleep, just to point out an inherent contradiction in accusing a poster of nit picking having said that the devil is in the detail, detail, detail.

Posssibly a better idea than all these immigrant bashing proposals would be to create a Fast Stream akin to the Civil Service.

I say this because of the very small sample of F2 parents on these two related threads, three of four have said in terms that their F2 child wants to enjoy a work life balance. These same F2 parents have said that their DC made a conscious choice to opt for less competitive deaneries, with I think (could be wrong) some saying (or having said previously) that part of the motive was for work life balance. And you (talking to Needmoresleep here) have referred to superstars/ ambition/ London several times. And also - very sensibly - have said there should be a place for less ambitious but competent doctors in the system. Those who either aren't academic or don't want to put in the time to evidence their academic credentials.

And alongside that a London consultant has said if you want to succeed you need to put the hard graft in, and that their F2s are seeing a very good measure of success.

The use of recruitment agencies pose several issues which are fuelling the current new IMG boom. I don't think you can measure the true merit of an applicant if someone else is assisting in the writing of applications, etc.

Also the current NHS recruitment system was introduced partly to make it fairer on all applicants. It fails to do that if wealthy applicants from overseas are getting help with applications. Recruitment agencies exist for profit and the use of agents or overseas academies by a wholly taxpayer funded institution like the NHS should be prohibited as they are expensive and the NHS becomes over reliant on them. It's evident now that this has disadvantaged applicants here.

Also academies involved in NHS recruitment overseas seem to be charging their overseas graduates high fees. This is a conflict of interest issue, if UK doctors or those part of NHS recruitment policy making, hold important positions within these overseas academies. It is especially concerning when they promote the NHS as a way of securing highly respected UK qualifications that can be used to secure medical jobs globally after leaving the NHS. This should be stopped as it's not in the interests of the NHS's future to be used for training the global medical workforce and also it's a failure to support the NHS staff already working for these doctors here in the NHS hospitals.

In the interests of equality and fairness of all applicants, the use of recruitment agencies should be prohibited. In the interests of the NHS's future, the UK medical graduates and UK IMGs should be prioritised ahead of applicants located overseas.

Given there appears that there are currently issues with NHS recruitment, these should be addressed urgently to prevent anyone from gaming the system.

I was one of the parents who said my F2 DS was in a non competitive deanery, by choice as he went to uni there. He has absolutely no interest whatsoever in moving to London but that does not mean he should be unemployed?

@mumsneedwine please don't leave the thread.

@CherubEarrings I'm still here 😁. I've got a v thick backside !! Was having coffee with a friend. Now have to start marking year 13 mocks.

BMA resident doctors committee planning on raising this as an issue at the AGM. Too late for this year but the lord we all shout, the more things might change.

Louder !

I think others may not understand the impact of Covid lockdown on our DC. It came right in the middle of their courses and completely mucked up their social lives. DD was very happy in her then placement then Covid struck, and she had to return home, spending the whole of her intercalation in her childhood bedroom - great in that she had nothing left to do except study - but then returned 18 months later to a busy fourth year with friends in far flung placements and with finals at the end.

There appears to be a real London centricity from high flying doctors who trained in London. A bit akin to Oxbridge snobbery in other professions. Before she went several doctors told her she was making a good choice. If she was any good she would get far more experience and responsibility where she was, than if she was in London. This seems to be the case.

However heavy workloads are not conducive to research, competitions etc, or to senior staff supporting their juniors in this way. . Hence the original idea of finishing F2 first then an F3. Given F1s are now allocated, this should be looked at.

88% YANBU is a pretty stark message regarding how the thread is landing.

Absolutely not. That was the exact point .

I can see the vote numbers thanks. They slightly self-fulfilling however but yes 88% YANBU or whatever it is now.

The message you've quoted wasn't anything to do with the vote count though. It was about how mumsneedwine has been so rude to posters who express a different position, however polite they are to her. So I asked her for the sort of courtesy most people should be capable of showing, because unfortunately there's been quite a bit of name calling which is extremely unpleasant. Tbf to mumsneedwine some other posters (not me once) have been pretty scathing back to her. All I said here was that the call for a bit of normal courtesy gained 'likes'. I'm not clear that any normal people like the infantile name calling even when accompanied by a 😂I think maybe the rudest people here depend too heavily on MN for social interaction and forget what's normal in real life. I could be wrong, obviously, I frequently am, but it would make sense because the level of rudeness wouldn't be ok in real life.

I agree that the new system of allocation will make a difference in terms of peer group in particular deaneries and therefore have a knock on effect on general feelings/ behaviour.

It's just how it's been, the London thing. I don't know that it's a snob thing. My own DC wanted to be with all their friends from uni who were headed that way. I think that's the huge draw initially.

If you've not yet signed it here is the petition

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfcyIlbYdzz1bVJuSnRweFuBdqqkWNEG6Tyvv_KjR7mGsG-cA/viewform

My worry is if they cannot do anything for 2025 there will be so many reapplying next year.

Does anyone know why BMA so slow on this?

Why just sound bites from government? They could have acted on this in the summer last year.

All just watching a car crash in slow motion.

Yes, that's great! Do the dissenting voices want to preserve the status quo of the state of the NHS?

It may be that some of the dissenting voices are unaware of issues but it's also very concerning that there are some working within the NHS that are resistant to changes which might improve it.

Is this due to a protection of self-interests or just a failure on the part of those involved in recruitment, etc to pick up relevant issues? If the latter is the case, there is a question of their competence in being at the heart of workforce planning.

It's only fair that these questions are asked instead of permitting the continuity of the narrative that UK doctors keep leaving for Australia, etc.

Instead of repeatedly denying the current issue faced by the latest cohorts, isn't it better to support them? Instead of recruiting from overseas, isn't it better to employ the ones here whose resilience and performance is tested every day as they work under the enormous pressures of the NHS.

The GMC yesterday was quoted yesterday on the news as saying (in response to the LBC piece) that doctors who come from abroad contribute an enormous amount of experience to the NHS.

You ask about the BMA but you must be able to see it's a minefield.

The GMC think PAs are OK operating unsupervised on babies.

Which even if true has absolutely nothing to do with the complexity of the situation.

Upthread someone was quoted the BMA as saying that the solution to recruitment of overseas doctors was to create more medical school places...duh.

Clowns to the left of me, clowns to the right.

Why is the BMA a minefield? A genuine question.

(I know that several doctors on MNs sex and gender board were unhappy about it's unwillingness to support Cass etc, but on this, what angle do they have.)

No one is denying that IMGs from abroad who are already here are making significant contributions within the NHS.

A pertinent question is whether there are any links between the GMC, BMA and the massive recruitment drive from overseas?? Are any prominent members, past and present, involved in setting up academies overseas? If so, how, if at all is the NHS budget used for the recruitment overseas at the expense of UK based doctors? If so, how are they involved in the NHS Long Term Workforce Plan? Have doctors (local or foreign already working in the NHS) been disadvantaged by all this?

Can you shed some light on this?

Given the GMC and BMA would be expected by the general public to be aware of recruitment issues, how did it get out of hand? Why are doctors in the UK ( including UK IMGs) unemployed ? How did it come to be that this went unnoticed for so long?????

To add. There will be a lot of doctors from overseas recruited on short term contracts who are now in the same position as current F2s. With NHS Bank work drying up, even avid supporters of overseas recruitment, must be having second thoughts.

And of course overseas doctors will contribute experience. This is why they will do well when it comes to recruitment for entry level jobs. They are likely to have more experience and academic achievements than F2s. The only two rational approaches are to either close or reduce medical school places and rely on overseas recruitment, or prioritise those already in the UK. Allowing young people to build up £100,000 debt and expect the tax payer to contribute £250,000 when there is no clear pathway at the end is bonkers.

There needs to be a thorough investigation by an outside body to look at why BMA and GMC have not done anything.

I do not disagree that there should be jobs for doctors who want to work and voted for the motion.
What I object to that has come out on this thread is that these should be given as a matter or right because they have done Fy1 and FY2 and worked hard.
I find the racist undertones reminiscent of Brexit from people who do not understand how short listing or recruitment are done in the NHS.

These are the same people who would have advocated for transparency and anonymised fair impartial processes for jobs - blaming the old boys network, white patriarchy etc and wanting them removed. The latter should not return!

Now we have clear targets and competencies and anonymised selection to eliminate bias and favouritism - these same people are now saying this is unfair.

Now we have the blame on London and unpopular deaneries - the blame game does not stop for some people on this thread. There have never been enough training numbers and places on rotations and that is still the case but the ingenuity of many or my friends and colleagues to get where they wanted to be, has and is amazing. They have moved counties, countries, diversified, joined industry, taken un paid jobs, research and still got where they wanted to be via different routes.

if you want to progress in Medicine then that requires graft there is no short cut for that and has not been for a long time. Sometimes it appears unfair and it is sometimes it is not.

Patients want competent doctors who have been trained, tested and made the mark required - they do not care of the prestige of the Edinburgh rotation, London rotation, the unpopular rotation out of Scunthorpe, Bognor etc or the route people took to competence.

@takeittakeit please can you answer my previous post?

Thanks.