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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
70
mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:39

@OneMorePiece I have absolutely no clue why a v v few posters seem so keen to disregard the facts. It's all v strange ...

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:40

The facts once again for anyone new

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
HappyHolidai · 09/02/2025 17:44

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:38

Thanks - yes it does.

HappyHolidai · 09/02/2025 17:55

So, having read the petition, it's not something that I can sign, as I'm not a medic of any sort and have no knowledge or opinion on point 5, which seems to be BMA internal politics, and cannot sign up to 6. Plus the "demand" terminology is rather off-putting.

However, I would be really interested in the proposed draft letter to MPs about the restoration of the Resident Market Labour Test (not just for doctors as there seem to be issues with nurses, midwives, etc). I think it's the OP who was working on that. Obviously not an overnight job. The link to the petition has been really helpful in terms of background and figures which I can put in my own letter to my MP when I get there.

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 18:01

How about these figures?

£30 000 plus per IMG to secure an NHS post? No! I didn't add extra zeros.

How is this possible if the current NHS recruitment system is designed to be fair and equitable to all applicants, whatever their background!!!

Surely wealthy overseas applicants can secure NHS posts and game the system. Who in the UK is involved in these schemes? How much does it cost the NHS and who is profiting from it? Why are they turning a blind eye to the plight of affected doctors, UK and foreign who already working here?

These schemes seem to be thriving post Brexit!

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 18:06

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 18:01

How about these figures?

£30 000 plus per IMG to secure an NHS post? No! I didn't add extra zeros.

How is this possible if the current NHS recruitment system is designed to be fair and equitable to all applicants, whatever their background!!!

Surely wealthy overseas applicants can secure NHS posts and game the system. Who in the UK is involved in these schemes? How much does it cost the NHS and who is profiting from it? Why are they turning a blind eye to the plight of affected doctors, UK and foreign who already working here?

These schemes seem to be thriving post Brexit!

Just adding that the figure relates to new IMGs who are still abroad and therefore they would be new to the UK. Can any doctors in the UK possibly engaging what seems like a lucrative side hustle explain how this is moral and ethical?

CherubEarrings · 09/02/2025 18:13

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 17:11

Whatever the reason is, we should not let accusations of racism stop us from uncovering issues which are possibly contributing to the problems facing affected young doctors.

After all, it's important these issues are resolved as soon as possble. It's in the interests of the continued existence and proper functioning of the NHS, its patients and the NHS staff already working here regardless of whether they are local or foreign.

Completely agree. Mentioning racism is an attempt to shut down the debate.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 18:14

@HappyHolidai glad it was helpful. The more informed everyone is the quicker this can be solved. Because it can be, v v easily and cheaply.

@OneMorePiece I do think there is someone making a lot of money behind this. Do you know the GMC, funded by doctors and there to protect public safety, pay for their staff to have private medical insurance. So NHS doctors who have no choice but to pay the extortionate fees are paying for others to recieve care outside the NHS.

Clavinova · 09/02/2025 18:24

PlopSofa
other countries prioritise their graduates first and up until 2020, the NHS did the same for U.K. nationals

How did that work under EU freedom of movement rules and the single market? Genuine question. As far as I can see the Resident Labour Market Test included EEA nationals.

CherubEarrings · 09/02/2025 18:35

Clavinova · 09/02/2025 18:24

PlopSofa
other countries prioritise their graduates first and up until 2020, the NHS did the same for U.K. nationals

How did that work under EU freedom of movement rules and the single market? Genuine question. As far as I can see the Resident Labour Market Test included EEA nationals.

Edited

My understanding is it used to be UK and EU graduates had equal rights to apply for training in the UK and assume UK medical graduates could do the same in Europe. The numbers were not high though. Brexit ended that.

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 18:47

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 18:14

@HappyHolidai glad it was helpful. The more informed everyone is the quicker this can be solved. Because it can be, v v easily and cheaply.

@OneMorePiece I do think there is someone making a lot of money behind this. Do you know the GMC, funded by doctors and there to protect public safety, pay for their staff to have private medical insurance. So NHS doctors who have no choice but to pay the extortionate fees are paying for others to recieve care outside the NHS.

All the more why these issues need to be addressed urgently.

A reinstatement of the Resident Labour Market Test and an urgent review of the current points based immigration system would really help address this problem!

It's ludicrous that doctors here, UK MG or UK IMG have to suffer due to lack of legal protection of their positions after all that time and effort they have devoted to their medical studies and all those shifts they have put in at NHS hospitals.

CherubEarrings · 09/02/2025 18:53

Does anyone think Labour will do anything about this? Or will it be another "report" instead of the quick decisive action that is needed?

Wooleys · 09/02/2025 18:54

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 17:27

Yes, surprised why there are people accusing posters concerned about doctors already here of being racist. Are they not worried about the plight of IMGs already working here?

Since Wooley has had such a keen interest in this thread, why does Wooley keep denying what we said all the way through? Our stance is that all doctors, UK and foreign doctors already working here, should be prioritised ahead of IMGs outside the UK. It's not a thread calling to redress the balance for just the few DCs of posters here, but all doctors, including UK based IMGs who are supporting the petition.

I have no keener interest in this thread than all the other posters who've kept up from the start. By far the most prolific posters are mumsneedwine and Needmoresleep - fair enough, it's the latter's thread. If you look at my posts you'll see there are huge swathes of time between them. It's the only thread I'm currently reading that's all, if only because it comes up first (inevitably) on 'I'm on'. I've already said that I have no real concerns about my F1, just because of their profile and determination and also huge capacity to work hard and pack everything in. I've a general interest; I wouldn't characterise it as 'keen'.

On the narrow self-interest front can you few parents of F2s put your hand on your heart and say that if your own DC weren't an F2 or soon to be, that you'd be exercised about this at all? Of course it has to be framed as 'for all doctors' but it's blatantly about your own individual DC.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 19:02

I wouldn't know about it if my own DD wasn't a F2 ? Much like you and a few others don't know about it,

Haffdonga · 09/02/2025 19:02

takeittakeit · 09/02/2025 15:49

I do not disagree that there should be jobs for doctors who want to work and voted for the motion.
What I object to that has come out on this thread is that these should be given as a matter or right because they have done Fy1 and FY2 and worked hard.
I find the racist undertones reminiscent of Brexit from people who do not understand how short listing or recruitment are done in the NHS.

These are the same people who would have advocated for transparency and anonymised fair impartial processes for jobs - blaming the old boys network, white patriarchy etc and wanting them removed. The latter should not return!

Now we have clear targets and competencies and anonymised selection to eliminate bias and favouritism - these same people are now saying this is unfair.

Now we have the blame on London and unpopular deaneries - the blame game does not stop for some people on this thread. There have never been enough training numbers and places on rotations and that is still the case but the ingenuity of many or my friends and colleagues to get where they wanted to be, has and is amazing. They have moved counties, countries, diversified, joined industry, taken un paid jobs, research and still got where they wanted to be via different routes.

if you want to progress in Medicine then that requires graft there is no short cut for that and has not been for a long time. Sometimes it appears unfair and it is sometimes it is not.

Patients want competent doctors who have been trained, tested and made the mark required - they do not care of the prestige of the Edinburgh rotation, London rotation, the unpopular rotation out of Scunthorpe, Bognor etc or the route people took to competence.

I haven't commented much on this thread due to real life stuff going on but am incredibly grateful to @Needmoresleep, @mumsneedwine and others for raising awareness of these issues. The sheer speed that the thread's filled up, and the number of people commenting, show that this is a genuine issue that people are concerned about. (And isn't it ironic that those posters higher up in their NHS careers who don't recognise that there's a problem are themselves raising wider awareness by repeatedly bringing this thread up in active conversations?)

But the lazy reflex argument some have expressed that it's 'just racism' to want UK based doctors to have a fair chance of getting UK jobs makes me extremely upset. The words racist undertones, reminiscent of Brexit, white patriarchy are just a cheap and lazy response without taking on board any of the actual facts or listening to the genuine reasons for concern.

FWIW, my F2 ds, who is currently struggling to find any job in the UK is not a member of the white patriarchy, he didn't go to private school, there are no old boy doctors in the family giving him a leg up. His dad is first generation immigrant to the UK from one of those countries that people are unhappy about the number of immigrants entering the UK and has worked up to his own position in the NHS from zero (not a medic) by sheer hard work and intelligence. But I do have reason to believe ds is a bloody good NHS doctor that the NHS looks set to lose. He has worked incredibly hard, achieved high scores and received overwhelmingly positive feedback from colleagues and supervisors. I'm sure this is the case for the great majority of his cohort that he trained with too. To tell me that it's racist to want my ds to have a fair chance of getting a job in his own country makes my blood boil. It is anything but racist.

Anyhow, even if we disagree about causes, motivations and the degree of concern we should feel about it, we can perhaps all agree that there is a changing situation that is making it increasingly difficult for UK trained medics to progress in their career relative to how it was for them pre covid. It is a waste of taxpayers money to train medics in the UK and then to recruit doctors from abroad and the current system isn't working in the way it was intended.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 19:03

@Haffdonga 🤗.

Needmoresleep · 09/02/2025 19:04

HappyHolidai · 09/02/2025 17:55

So, having read the petition, it's not something that I can sign, as I'm not a medic of any sort and have no knowledge or opinion on point 5, which seems to be BMA internal politics, and cannot sign up to 6. Plus the "demand" terminology is rather off-putting.

However, I would be really interested in the proposed draft letter to MPs about the restoration of the Resident Market Labour Test (not just for doctors as there seem to be issues with nurses, midwives, etc). I think it's the OP who was working on that. Obviously not an overnight job. The link to the petition has been really helpful in terms of background and figures which I can put in my own letter to my MP when I get there.

Almost there. It's not been that easy.

Trying to keep it factual and simple. This thread has been really useful, not least to understand arguments some posters find difficult.

Hopefully tomorrow morning.

OP posts:
ShortSighted101 · 09/02/2025 19:07

HappyHolidai · 09/02/2025 17:55

So, having read the petition, it's not something that I can sign, as I'm not a medic of any sort and have no knowledge or opinion on point 5, which seems to be BMA internal politics, and cannot sign up to 6. Plus the "demand" terminology is rather off-putting.

However, I would be really interested in the proposed draft letter to MPs about the restoration of the Resident Market Labour Test (not just for doctors as there seem to be issues with nurses, midwives, etc). I think it's the OP who was working on that. Obviously not an overnight job. The link to the petition has been really helpful in terms of background and figures which I can put in my own letter to my MP when I get there.

You can tick the box that you are a member of the public. But I do agree that for members of the public writing to their mp seems a good idea.

Wooleys · 09/02/2025 19:21

But the lazy reflex argument some have expressed that it's 'just racism' to want UK based doctors to have a fair chance of getting UK jobs makes me extremely upset. The words racist undertones, reminiscent of Brexit, white patriarchy are just a cheap and lazy response without taking on board any of the actual facts or listening to the genuine reasons for concern

Wow. Possibly read the credentials of the first poster to refer to the idea of racist undertones and then tell them that even as a recruiting medical consultant in London, they aren't taking on board the facts. Please allow other posters including myself to read all the concerns expressed here and then think hmm here we go closed shop/ unpleasant overtones. Extraordinary to tell people what they have to think, based on what they can read very easily. Arrogance seems to be infectious on this thread.

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 19:22

Here is that beautiful lovely grey rock again.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors
OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 19:24

CherubEarrings · 09/02/2025 18:53

Does anyone think Labour will do anything about this? Or will it be another "report" instead of the quick decisive action that is needed?

Edited

Honestly, with Labour being in government and the legal migration figures being so high, it's in their interests to fix the problem. With Kier going on about the Tories operating 'an open borders experiment' post Brexit, Stephen Kinnock mentioning in 2022 about a possibility of reinstating RLMT if in power and Yvette Cooper already in the process of getting the new immigration points system in place, I don't see why they should shy away from this issue.

Only issue is the state of the economy now. Also disruption from the opposition parties which are constantly undermining each other. If another party stokes division in society and keep trying to undermine what the government is trying to do with the immigration system, ultimately none of the issues in the country will be addressed. When considering who we should consult to fix the problem, I just keep reminding myself who the architects of Brexit were and who failed to plan for it properly.

PlopSofa · 09/02/2025 19:24

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 19:22

Here is that beautiful lovely grey rock again.

😆😆😆
Perfect 🤩
Keep it up 👍

PlopSofa · 09/02/2025 20:02

mumsneedwine · 09/02/2025 17:06

Good to know 99.99999999% countries operate a racist employment system. Currently only the UK who doesn't.

Always the cop out. Pull the racism card. Majority of IMGs polled by BMA agree with prioritising UK graduates. But hey, we on here are all just bigots.

100%

These people can’t see that they’re the reason Reform will get in next time around.

People who are not racist get fed up with being told they are racist or have even ‘tones’ of racism when it’s perfectly clear that’s not what’s being said or intimated here.

OneMorePiece · 09/02/2025 20:34

Wooleys · 09/02/2025 19:21

But the lazy reflex argument some have expressed that it's 'just racism' to want UK based doctors to have a fair chance of getting UK jobs makes me extremely upset. The words racist undertones, reminiscent of Brexit, white patriarchy are just a cheap and lazy response without taking on board any of the actual facts or listening to the genuine reasons for concern

Wow. Possibly read the credentials of the first poster to refer to the idea of racist undertones and then tell them that even as a recruiting medical consultant in London, they aren't taking on board the facts. Please allow other posters including myself to read all the concerns expressed here and then think hmm here we go closed shop/ unpleasant overtones. Extraordinary to tell people what they have to think, based on what they can read very easily. Arrogance seems to be infectious on this thread.

Is the 'recruiting medical consultant in London' @takeittakeit ? I did call on @takeittakeit to answer some questions to clarify 'the facts' but am still waiting for an answer.

BTW being afraid to request changes to redress the balance before the issue of migration implodes to an extent that it destroys social cohesion is unwise. You only have to look at what's happening elsewhere in the world.

Wooleys · 09/02/2025 20:45

Yes that's the poster I'm referring to.

I suppose not absolutely everyone is on MN all the time/ some people are busy/ not everyone pores over every single post and so may miss requests directed at them. Not sure you can infer anything whatsoever from that. Your comment sounds a bit loaded, as though takeittakeit is in the dock at the Old Bailey.

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