I do not believe in gender identity.

[SernieBanders]

There are two sexes: male and female. Occasionally, that matters.

There is no such thing as an innate gender identity—no internal essence that makes someone more inclined to wear dresses and sip wine, or football boots and down pints. Those are cultural stereotypes, not proof of some mystical gendered soul.

The idea of gender identity is sexist, misogynistic, and regressive. It reinforces outdated norms instead of challenging them. Women do not need an inner feeling of womanhood to be women. Men do not need a gender identity to be men. Sex is real. Stereotypes are not.

I hope with the flurry of cultural changes, legal challenges, scientific findings and executive orders in the last ~12 months, more people feel able to stand up and be counted, and say - No More.

I'd also like to know what 'hate' is being referenced here.

Can you truly say that a TP reading this thread wouldn’t feel like shit? This thread isn’t just full of calm balanced well reasoned arguments, it’s angry and bitter.
The core demographic of MN could also be argued to be more privileged than the vast majority of TP; middle class, well educated and high earners. So it comes across as a marginalised group seeking to vilify an even more vulnerable group tbh.

But what are we supposed to do to spare the feelings of transpeople?

Literally all everyone has said on here is that no human can change sex and we shouldn't be pretending they can.

That's just reality. It's not anyone else's fault if people can't deal with reality.

Amd as for the 'most marginalised' - seriously? Most of these people se to be middle class, middle aged white men.

Whereas the women who most suffer from 'trans inclusion' are vulnerable women. Prisoners, take victim, domestic violence sufferers, orthodox religious.

Should have said 'rape victims'

sorry

No consideration given to women who have been victims of sexual assault, who for religious reasons don’t want to be in certain spaces with men, or people like me who, in places like toilets and/or changing rooms, just don’t want to?

What about those women who open up these threads to see people arguing for men to be in such spaces because THEY don’t see a problem so no one else should have a problem, that every transwomen they know is lovely but vulnerable and marginalised, that those women should be accepting of them despite their negative past experiences and the like, or else they’ll be called a transphobe, hateful and a bigot? It happens on every thread where this is discussed.

What about their feelings? Again, why are theirs secondary?

I would like to come back to something @Catza claimed on the first page, that no one says gender identity is something people are born with.

Johanna Olson Kennedy a doctor at Children’s Hospital Los Angeles. She runs the gender clinic there. She has medically transitioned thousands of children. In 2011 she gave this interview:

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/transgender-kids-pioneer-early-identity-body/story?id=14404963

"We often ask parents, Would you rather have a dead son than a live daughter? … These kids have a suicide rate that is astronomical compared to any other group," she said.

Olson says you can't force kids to be a gender they don't think they are. Gender identity isn't a choice; it's set at birth.

[my bold]

The belief that gender identity is something children are born with has been the entire basis of why parents have been threatened with their child’s suicide and has led to the medicalisation of thousands of children worldwide. The doctors who do this absolutely believe that “gender identity” is innate.

As of yesterday, Children’s Hospital Los Angeles announced it was halting all new prescriptions for puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for children. Olson Kennedy is also being sued by a detransitioner.

So the questions remain. If it’s innate, what is it? And you’d better have a damn good explanation given you’re using that reason to sterilise children.

And if it’s not innate, why does anyone think it’s reasonable to sterilise children on the basis of a social phenomenon?

Or you could persuade me to change my mind with reason and logic?

I can be angry about:

two things at once.

Sport and female spaces ARE threatened by trans people

hence all these discussions

it does not come from nowhere?!?!

The risk, or indeed threat to females from trans women, AKA trans identified men is , if we look at the prison population, HIGHER than “cis” men.

Oh I very much doubt you will entertain anyone that else’s views.

@Cornflakes123 i will entertain your views, please tell me

As I said earlier i pride myself on it.

please do.

start from absolute first principles and build up.

I’m listening.

no thanks. Checking out of this boring bullyish thread. Good luck

Boring&bullyish? Why don't you want a discussion?

I really do want to hear your views @Cornflakes123. My child is in such distress and I am determined to learn everything I can about gender so that I can safely support them and minimise the long term damage. It helps if I can hear all views

@Kalalily sorry your child is in distress I’m not sure this is the right place it sounds like you need expert advice. Now I’m not going to sit here and be bullied by a bunch of intimidators and name callers who didn’t even read any of my posts properly. I know this is a very emotive topic for people but there is no excuse for being downright nasty towards people. Please my choice to leave the discussion. Good bye

Why did you get deleted @SernieBanders ?

Sorry, I have just thought of another point for this.

There are other groups of male people who don't feel safe in male spaces. What do those groups of male people do? Why should this group of male people receive special consideration (by way of special spaces) if other vulnerable and marginalised male people don't get those considerations?

If there is a generalised lack of safety for male people with transgender identities in male single sex spaces, can the same be said for other vulnerable male people? Are there reports in the safety of these groups so that governments and organisations can address these safety issues?

I have asked numerous male people who have transgender identities on threads why they and the groups that support them have not started these campaigns and the answer has generally been, because we are women and female single sex spaces should be available to us.

Or... even more interesting, those male people agree that some other male transgender people need to be excluded from female single sex spaces. But that they, personally, should be using female single sex spaces because they are genuinely women.

Another variation has been that they express empathy and say they completely understand that it may be distressing for female people for them to be in the female single sex space. But, if they need to use the toilet and there is not third space available, then they will most definitely use the female single sex space. Because they can.

And it is not just me who have been on those threads asking this of those male people, it is some of the others who are also posting here on this thread. We have had these discussions. The answers from these male people generally go either of these ways.

It is very rare that a male poster with a transgender identity will answer that they will always respect female people's needs and stay out of female single sex spaces.

On the flip side to this is the answers from female people who have taken testosterone. They know and understand that the testosterone has added some male body cues to their appearance (it is what they hoped for, after all). They don't wish to use male toilets. However, they also understand those male body cues may distress some female people in the female provisions, so they go a very long way to find alternative solutions for themselves.

Tell us why men’s wants are more important than women’s rights.

politely.