I do not believe in gender identity.

[SernieBanders]

There are two sexes: male and female. Occasionally, that matters.

There is no such thing as an innate gender identity—no internal essence that makes someone more inclined to wear dresses and sip wine, or football boots and down pints. Those are cultural stereotypes, not proof of some mystical gendered soul.

The idea of gender identity is sexist, misogynistic, and regressive. It reinforces outdated norms instead of challenging them. Women do not need an inner feeling of womanhood to be women. Men do not need a gender identity to be men. Sex is real. Stereotypes are not.

I hope with the flurry of cultural changes, legal challenges, scientific findings and executive orders in the last ~12 months, more people feel able to stand up and be counted, and say - No More.

@Helleofabore yes because I refuse to hate in order to be a feminist. Sport, female only spaces are all threatened by gender inequality not trans people. Why waste the energy, men are making decisions about all these things, look at all the men in power in the UK, at the state of the US. Where are the trans people there trampling on women's rights. Trans people are more likely to be allies to gender equality and if they want to use the same toilet block as me then I will gladly hold the door open for them.

@CraftyOP how do you feel about women being incarcerated with men in prison?

It's not just that sexual predators are housed in women's prisons but men are so much stronger etc so women are physically vulnerable & sexually vulnerable to all men.

And these women are silenced & mustn't complain about the men - women have had their sentences extended for raising concerns about being incarcerated with men/transwomen.

I've never understood how women who call themselves feminists can support this.

Sport, female only spaces are all threatened by gender inequality not trans people

Can you explain that, please?

How are women's sports and female only spaces threatened by gender inequality?

@RobinEllacotStrike I've never understood how people that claim to want equality can trample on others'

I agree there are circumstances and issues to consider carefully and people that feel vulnerable against anyone else shouldn't have that ignored, but I've never felt at risk from a trans woman the same as from a man. It doesn't mean risk doesn't exist but the only time I was physically attacked it was another woman. Life is complicated and nuanced, this 'debate' is no difference. But if it's coming from a place of hate the no, I'm not having a part in it. No equality can come from that.

@Chersfrozenface well try getting paid the same, funded or as nice a training ground as a male athlete or sportsperson and get back to me.

"Where are the trans people there trampling on women's rights.".

Here you go. Here is a whole list of women and girls who have had their 'right to fair competition' trampled on.

https://www.shewon.org

"Sport, female only spaces are all threatened by gender inequality not trans people. Why waste the energy, men are making decisions about all these things, look at all the men in power in the UK, at the state of the US."

Seriously, what do you mean by this? That sport and female single sex spaces are only being threatened because male people are in positions of power?

So, do you support female only sport and female only single sex spaces (ie. that no male person regardless of their gender identity are included) but feel that female people should not discuss it or campaign to have these rights because male people are not going to listen?

If I have interpreted that correctly, then that is a remarkable thing for a feminist to say. And if I have not interpreted that correctly, please can you explain it further.

"Where are the trans people there trampling on women's rights.".

Here you go. Here is a whole list of women and girls who have had their 'right to fair competition' trampled on.

https://www.shewon.org

"if they want to use the same toilet block as me then I will gladly hold the door open for them."

And what about the female people who don't want male people accessing their toilet block? Do you support their right to campaign to exclude those male people that, I think, you wish to include?

How are women's sports and female only spaces threatened by gender inequality?

Well, for sure women's sports are typically woefully underfunded because of sexism, but that's a separate additional issue to males displacing women in them, and the dangers to women of male-bodied participants in contact sports. Many sporting organisations are recognising that but there's still a long way to go.

I think you’ve been lucky then? I have actually sat and shared a hairdryer with a TW in the changing room of my local David Lloyd. A decade ago and before I was switched onto all this stuff. I assumed, but will never know, that they had had decades of therapy and distress before having surgical procedures. I now question this, although they were clearly very discrete re changing and showering probably using a cubicle.

I also live in a town with an art college/university college. I’m afraid I see literally dozens of trans persons every day, usually in packs, heading off the 9/915 train walking to first seminars at 10 and again in the evening heading towards the pubs or back to the station to go home. The TW are all 18-23yo, tall, and rather emaciated looking in floaty dresses with long hair; the TMs are all stocky/plump (because of the T), with rainbow hair and/or severe shaved temples, usually in tight jeans, checked shirts and DMs. It’s tragic, really, but it means I am nervous to use the White Stuff communal changing room and the leisure centre shower rooms preferring to go home and shower there now and aroid the risk.

It’s not transphobia but an acceptance that in my town I genuinely no longer have an expectation of exclusively single sex facilities.

"Sport, female only spaces are all threatened by gender inequality not trans people"

This very clearly isn't true.

Womens sport has flourished & gone from strength to strength in the last couple of decades. The Emirates stadium is full to capacity when Arsenals women's team plays there. There is still progress to be made of course but gender stuff aside women's sport is in better health than it has ever been.

What is this "gender inequality" and how is it damaging women's sport? Do you have any examples?

In the last couple of years over 800 podium spots/ places/medals in women's sports have gone to men. That really and truly damages women's sport. Not to mention the damage done to every sports woman forced to use changing rooms with naked males. They are not consenting to be naked with men or have strange men naked in front of them, but in order to compete they must do so. And of course many women (religious women for example) will quietly self exclude from sport to avoid even being in such a situation.

www.nationalreview.com/news/female-athletes-lost-almost-900-medals-to-trans-identifying-men-worldwide-u-n-report-finds/

"Titled “Violence against women and girls in sports,” the August studyy_ conducted by the United Nations found that by March 30, 2024, over 600 female athletes in more than 400 women’s division events across 29 different sports were defeated by transgender-identifying men. Male athletes have taken over 890 medals from female athletes, the report said"

www.hecheated.org/results

womeninsport.org/transgender-inclusion-womens-sport/

fairplayforwomen.com/new-report-how-trans-inclusion-in-sport-is-harming-women-and-girls/

It's not hate to speak the truth.

@CraftyOP you didn't answer my question about women being locked up for days/weeks/months/years either men.

I'm really interested in how you reconcile being ok with locking women up with men & being feminist.

I'm not claiming to speak for prisoners but the hypocrisy is incredible. You claim to care about women in prison, but you don't really. You don't seem bothered about them being attacked by another woman or sexually abused by a prison officer or male worker in the prison, that absolutely happens. Or why they ended up in prison in the first place. You just want to have a go at trans people. Yes, no doubt some trans people are a risk but there are a tiny proportion of those people. All I'm saying is I don't believe in wasting my breath or campaigning energy on a small number of people, friends amongst them when my life is day in day out negatively impacted by the patriarchy who are probably loving the fact that they can get away with all the violence and abuse because you're arguing about the wrong thing. That's all I have to say.

So you can't reconcile identifying as a "feminist" & imprisoning women with men?

I get it. It's impossible to be a feminist and hold the position that women should be in prison with men.

As for the rest of your post, I do care very much about most of those things. But on this thread we are specifically talking about gender identity & gender ideology. It's probably the biggest threat to women's rights since we managed to get rights (not that long ago at all).

"You claim to care about women in prison, but you don't really. You don't seem bothered about them being attacked by another woman or sexually abused by a prison officer or male worker in the prison, that absolutely happens. Or why they ended up in prison in the first place.'

You have no idea what women spend their time campaigning for, or what their experiences are. I do care about women and prisons because I have had female family members in prison.

Yes, there are many issues to work with in campaigning for women's treatment by the law, including in prisons. Why the fuck would any society make a decision to make the lives of female prisoners harder by putting male prisoners in with them?

In your constant claims that it is not transgender people who are the problem, you are missing the entire point. It is the additional risk and the additional layer of issues that prioritising male people to be treated as if they are female that is the entirely the point.

"Yes, no doubt some trans people are a risk but there are a tiny proportion of those people. All I'm saying is I don't believe in wasting my breath or campaigning energy on a small number of people, friends amongst them when my life is day in day out negatively impacted by the patriarchy who are probably loving the fact that they can get away with all the violence and abuse because you're arguing about the wrong thing. That's all I have to say."

I think what you are saying is "All I'm saying is I don't believe in ... protecting female people from the additional risks that they are experiencing while you dismiss these risks because you have some friends that you like."

It amounts to 'not my Nigel'.

It's not because they are trans, it's because they are men.

It's disingenuous to claim we are transphobic etc. for not wanting men in women spaces.

The men who are most insistent that they must be able to access women's spaces are for sure the men who need to be kept out.

Transwomen have every right to dress/look however they want. But they are men & should use spaces set aside for men.

Good men stay out so bad men STAND OUT.

Transwomen are men though. Also good for you that you would "gladly hold the door open for them" I would NOT, you don't get to give away female only spaces just because YOU don't have a problem with men entering them, I and many others do!

But what if they don’t feel safe in male spaces? What if using a male space will open up a trans woman to abuse and maybe being hurt? Where do you suggest they go?
I absolutely don’t want to share a woman’s space with a man, I think I would have to leave, but I recognise that saying ‘just use the men’s space’ is incredibly simplistic, and completely lacking in empathy.
Your view is extremely ‘I am uncomfortable so my feelings override everyone else’s’, which is what a lot of people on this thread are accusing TP of doing. Ironic.

Respectfully, that’s not a women problem to solve. The answer isn’t to enforce a man into a women’s space because that man feels in danger of being in with men, so they, men puts that same fear women? No.

Campaign for men to be more accepting of other men who are gender non-conforming or who present differently perhaps? Why is it always on the woman?

The answer is a third space, however the trans lobby don’t want that. They aren’t campaigning for third spaces as this isn’t in keeping with validating what they claim to be.

There’s also no stats to back up this danger trans women face or these attacks that take place on the basis of being trans.

There are several issues here.

One is that if they are unsafe, alternative spaces should be provided. In fact, should have always have been provided.

And if there is an issue (and to be fair, I have not seen reports of this in media so is it a real issue or is it a potential issue that was used to get males into female single sex spaces), then why have no organisations or groups of individuals worked to get a campaign running to make male spaces more safe and welcoming to all male people.

Plus, if those male people are supposedly safer in female single sex spaces, why is it that so many people state that any male who wants to attack female people will just walk in. Meaning those male people using female single sex spaces are not safe from attack at all in female single sex spaces? Since there are no verified reports of transgender people being attacked in the male toilets in the UK, are they safer in the male toilets than the female toilets using some activists line of argument?

However, regardless female people should not have been used as human shields or to make male people comfortable in spaces that they should not have been in in the first place. And it should not be left to women and girls to find or campaign for the solution.

💯

No I agree it’s not a problem for women to solve, my point was you can have this view and still have empathy for TP and hope for a solution. There’s a lot of hate on this thread for TP who are themselves a vulnerable and marginalised group.

Well that’s debatable, I haven’t seen any hate. Just valid reasons for not wanting men, however they identify, in women’s spaces.

I’d also argue the most vulnerable group are women. Whose feelings always seem to come second to men who have a special identity. Why is this.

Where is the hate?

I don’t think there’s a lot of hate on this thread for TP. Certainly there is bitterness towards the treatment of autistic youth who identify as trans. And there is frustration at the loss of single sex spaces for women and outrage at the treatment of the nurse in Scotland.
To say that there is hate for trans people on this thread is like my autistic teenager telling me that I am trans phobic because I don’t agree with irreversible medical transitioning without trying psychological intervention first.

If any man is uncomfortable in a male space, because of the behaviour of other males - surely it is obvious that this is not a problem for women to solve?

Men need to be more inclusive and welcoming to men who present in all kinds of ways that aren't conventionally male. Tackle the real problem here (ie it's not women).