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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I do not believe in gender identity.

1000 replies

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 09:05

There are two sexes: male and female. Occasionally, that matters.

There is no such thing as an innate gender identity—no internal essence that makes someone more inclined to wear dresses and sip wine, or football boots and down pints. Those are cultural stereotypes, not proof of some mystical gendered soul.

The idea of gender identity is sexist, misogynistic, and regressive. It reinforces outdated norms instead of challenging them. Women do not need an inner feeling of womanhood to be women. Men do not need a gender identity to be men. Sex is real. Stereotypes are not.

I hope with the flurry of cultural changes, legal challenges, scientific findings and executive orders in the last ~12 months, more people feel able to stand up and be counted, and say - No More.

OP posts:
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SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 07:39

EmBear91 · 04/02/2025 21:00

God, the constant MN transphobia posts is actually getting boring now. When I think about the amount of times trans women or trans men have made me feel uncomfortable, it’s literally zero. The amount of times cis men have made me feel uncomfortable - off the fucking scale. And that goes for transphobic bigots too.

Oh sorry I didn’t get the note telling me you could speak for four billion women on the planet.

huge apologies. Maybe we should shut this post down now you’re here.

OP posts:
Kalalily · 05/02/2025 08:12

I think it would be really interesting to hear from the 13% who voted YABU I.e. that they believe in gender identity.
If it’s boring to hear from the 87% who are brave enough to write out their beliefs then maybe the thread will become a lot more interesting when the other 13% explain why they believe in gender identity and all that entails. It’s not harmless, certainly not to the adolescents caught up in it nor to their siblings who have had their childhoods erased and their own beliefs trampled on. Nor is it harmless to their parents, frantic with worry that they will take things too far aided by unscrupulous doctors

ThatFluentTiger · 05/02/2025 08:30

Kalalily · 05/02/2025 08:12

I think it would be really interesting to hear from the 13% who voted YABU I.e. that they believe in gender identity.
If it’s boring to hear from the 87% who are brave enough to write out their beliefs then maybe the thread will become a lot more interesting when the other 13% explain why they believe in gender identity and all that entails. It’s not harmless, certainly not to the adolescents caught up in it nor to their siblings who have had their childhoods erased and their own beliefs trampled on. Nor is it harmless to their parents, frantic with worry that they will take things too far aided by unscrupulous doctors

I think the amount of vitriol they’d face means that isn’t likely to happen. Just look at the post above yours.
The purpose of this whole thread seems to have been just to create an echo chamber.

SerafinasGoose · 05/02/2025 08:30

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 06:22

Wonder if they are more or less popular nowadays?

Yes, well in that case I take their point. They can hardly be called 'sex reveal' parties, or guests might turn up expecting something entirely different ... 😱

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 08:32

ThatFluentTiger · 05/02/2025 08:30

I think the amount of vitriol they’d face means that isn’t likely to happen. Just look at the post above yours.
The purpose of this whole thread seems to have been just to create an echo chamber.

Not at all. I am genuinely interested in the reasons why 13% of people think a human can change actual sex just by saying g so.

I mean, I’m as fascinated by people who believe the moon landing was a hoax, or that vaccines cause Autism

if there is a cogent argument about how gender identity exists, I want to hear it. I like changing my mind I consider it a strength.

OP posts:
SerafinasGoose · 05/02/2025 08:32

Thirteenblackcat · 04/02/2025 22:35

I’m not sure you meant to quote me but anyway. Yes

Sorry - no I didn't. Not sure what happened there!

ThatFluentTiger · 05/02/2025 08:43

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 08:32

Not at all. I am genuinely interested in the reasons why 13% of people think a human can change actual sex just by saying g so.

I mean, I’m as fascinated by people who believe the moon landing was a hoax, or that vaccines cause Autism

if there is a cogent argument about how gender identity exists, I want to hear it. I like changing my mind I consider it a strength.

My point well proven in your reply. Enjoy your echo chamber.

AlisonDonut · 05/02/2025 08:47

ThatFluentTiger · 05/02/2025 08:43

My point well proven in your reply. Enjoy your echo chamber.

Isn't asking for people's opinions, in an anonymous forum, of what 'gender identity' is, in order to change minds, the very opposite of an 'echo chamber'?

How else would one go about finding out about this elusive concept and what it actually is?

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 08:49

ThatFluentTiger · 05/02/2025 08:43

My point well proven in your reply. Enjoy your echo chamber.

I’m very confused.

I just asked you for a cogent argument about how gender identity exists and offered to change my mind.

my mind is very open please explain to us what gender identity is and how it exists and I will. I swear. Change my mind.

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ThatFluentTiger · 05/02/2025 08:54

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 08:49

I’m very confused.

I just asked you for a cogent argument about how gender identity exists and offered to change my mind.

my mind is very open please explain to us what gender identity is and how it exists and I will. I swear. Change my mind.

Your reply compared people who disagree with you to conspiracy theorists. You’re clearly being completely disingenuous, nothing to be confused about.

AlisonDonut · 05/02/2025 09:01

ThatFluentTiger · 05/02/2025 08:54

Your reply compared people who disagree with you to conspiracy theorists. You’re clearly being completely disingenuous, nothing to be confused about.

In order to believe in something you have to know it exists. The lack of evidence of existence is fundamental to the concept of a 'conspiracy theory'.

If you want to prove it exists then argue that point maybe?

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 09:07

ThatFluentTiger · 05/02/2025 08:54

Your reply compared people who disagree with you to conspiracy theorists. You’re clearly being completely disingenuous, nothing to be confused about.

Please give us your cogent, persuasive argument. I will change my mind.

OP posts:
Kalalily · 05/02/2025 09:20

ThatFluentTiger · 05/02/2025 08:30

I think the amount of vitriol they’d face means that isn’t likely to happen. Just look at the post above yours.
The purpose of this whole thread seems to have been just to create an echo chamber.

Hopefully that wouldn’t happen but if it does it is easy to leave an anonymous forum.
If a belief isn’t hurting anybody else then that is fine, believe what you like. But if there are young autistic kids who feel wrong in their own bodies reading these beliefs and starting on a path that can lead to life changing consequences for them and their families then I believe that one has a duty to explain these beliefs.
Thank goodness for the Cass Report and the resulting closure of the Tavistock clinic. Now we need regulation of private clinics and protection for people with autism who mature later than their neurotypical peers. It’s all very well saying an 18 year-old has consent and capacity, but if that 18 year-old is autistic and has co-morbidities such as trauma then there should be some form of safeguarding.
My autistic adolescent child cannot tell me why they feel like the opposite sex, they say they know that they are the opposite sex and that taking cross sex hormones will improve their quality of life. And ultimately surgery and facial reconstruction.
So please help me understand because I can’t find any science to back up my child’s beliefs and I can therefore only imagine that they are the result of trauma and a lack of identity due to being in a state of fight or flight all of their teen life.
if I was one of the 13% and I could help a parent understand, and risk facing some vitriol on a MN thread in the process, then I would do it. Please remember that we are suffering our own trauma from watching our children suffer and knowing there is no safe help for them or us. Imagine how it feels to be called transphobic for trying to ensure your child gets the best care possible, a child you know better than they know themselves. Why would the 13% not want to help that parent understand. I would

CautiousLurker01 · 05/02/2025 09:29

I think it is really hard for those of us ‘in the echo chamber’ - most of us have been in this for nearly a decade, often supporting a child or family member who has gender dysphoria. We’ve liaised with specialists and consultants, read everything they’ve sent us in terms of reports, recommended books, research. This is not ‘echo chamber stuff’ as just as many of the consultants were affirming as were GC, plus until recently they could not openly state if they were GC if they worked for CAMHS, the NHS or GIDS - so the material we have ploughed through over the last 5-10 years and still reached our GC positions on is based on years of exposure to literature materials of all biases.

This means that when people cite purported facts, with or without links, that evidence third sex/innate gendered souls/increased suicidalty/harmlessness of PBs/reversibility of surgical interventions…it is difficult not to appear dismissive. We’ve probably read that piece of research, plus most of the materials cited in the footnotes and bibliographies/references, we’ve likely discussed them in detail with the clinical practitioners treating our family member, as well as in family forums like the Bayswater group.

Many of those posting that we are transphobic bigots have no idea the extents we have gone to understand, to support, our love ones. They have no idea the trauma we have witnessed or experienced. We start this journey desperate to believe that maybe our instinctive, gut level reaction to the idea of a true innate trans identity is misplaced and that we can re-educate ourselves. But it doesn’t happen. The more evidence we are exposed to, the more we see that it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, that the research protocols were flawed, that the subject selection was skewed, that the sample sizes were small and -effectively - rigged/biased, that the researchers had an agenda so cannot be regarded as ‘neutral… I could go on.

I have a friend whose partner has nearly died from sepsis after a mastectomy and whose wounds simply fail to heal a year afterwards (I’d share the picture of the pus oozing chest wounds but that would be deeply disrespectful); I have a friend whose child is only a few days younger than mine whose mastectomy was carried out around her 19th birthday, barely a year after discharge from a paediatric psychiatric unit where she was an inpatient for 18m, and only discovered her trans identity on forming a relationship with a trans man she met immediately afterwards. The trans ‘boy’-friend dumped her 3 weeks after surgery, btw. And I have a child who I have fought to ensure did not have PBS or surgeries over a 7yr period, who now no longer regards herself as male, though the scars on her arm from wrist to shoulder will likely never fade. She is physically intact, otherwise, and finally looking forward to going to university in September having worked her socks off to reclaim a life, albeit being a couple of years behind her peers.

So, I hope that those screaming ‘bigot’ and deriding our ‘echo chamber’ might perhaps meet us half way and understand that this is not ‘section 28’ all over again, but a group people who have been pulled into this reluctantly. People who desperately care for at least one person directly impacted by this. And this is before you get to the muslim and jewish family members who are impacted by trans inclusive policies that mean they can no longer risk using public changing rooms or participate in women’s swimming sessions at the local leisure centre so have found their worlds shrinking, their social networks impacted, their rights to safety and dignity in single-sexed spaces dismissed.

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 09:34

BruhWhy · 04/02/2025 10:58

Well, yanbu, but I'm not sure what "executive orders" have to do with any of it, unless you're referring to this bizarre idea that Daddy Trump is fixing gender.

If so that's actually laughable. UK feminists have been working fucking tirelessly for years now to have the concept of an 'innate gender' up for debate again, and they've actually gained ground while still having womens' rights at the top of their agenda. The Cheeto-in-Chief is a wave riding imbecile and should be credited for nothing.

I don't credit Trump, but I do credit whoever wrote those executive orders because they are incredibly well worded and they are so good Expect a lot of other countries to pick them up wholesale, and thats a very good thing

OP posts:
Weregoingonabearhuntwegonnafindabear · 05/02/2025 09:37

My DS when he was 15 finished with his gf..she was heartbroken, we remained close to her family, after they broke up . The ex gf went 2 years being a 'he' everyone supported this ( I suspected it was reaction to the break up ) the mother took him to gender rallys , supported hormones If wanted ect ...4 years later she is back femail and married with kids ! A dangerous route to take with schools ect supporting this.
My DGS atm says he's gay as he's going out with a boy ,he is with a girl with a vigina .he is not gay ..

snowmichael · 05/02/2025 09:52

PersephoneSmith · 04/02/2025 10:48

Are you trans @zerogrey ? Or is there some other reason you can’t see the science facts behind biological sex? Skin in the game?

Biological sex?
Like XXY, XYY, and XX(male)?
Or people with both male and female genitalia?
Your ignorance is outrageous but not, sadly, astonishing

snowmichael · 05/02/2025 09:55

ThisFluentBiscuit · 04/02/2025 10:59

I can only speak for myself, but I feel - and have always felt - deeply feminine. And I truly don't think that it's the result of social conditioning. I genuinely like ballet and wine and makeup, and have no interest in more masculine pursuits. Never have done, never will do. Given how strongly I feel female, it seems to me that gender ID is a thing. But I'm not well-versed in these matters like some here.

> I genuinely like ballet and wine and makeup
Nothing inherently make or female about any of those
Which does tend to support the people saying gender is irrelevant

Chersfrozenface · 05/02/2025 09:55

Or people with both male and female genitalia?

There are no such people.

snowmichael · 05/02/2025 09:57

Moonshower · 04/02/2025 11:08

I agree there is only two sexes, I am also happy for someone to believe something different with the caveat that it doesn’t infringe on someone’s rights.

So people compete in sports or use the bathroom of their sex at birth (or an alternative bathroom for both sexes if someone is uncomfortable). I don’t agree with a genetically man being allowed into sports as they have a biological advantage. But I am happy for them to live their life how they want….without affecting others.

I do feel sorry for people that feel they are in the wrong sex body. People who are very anti this reminds me of going back 50 years and people being gay. I think we have to protect and ring fence rights for all, that’s men, women and anyone who might feel they are in the wrong body.

> I agree there is only two sexes
Then you should educate yourself
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780444632333000245

SerendipityJane · 05/02/2025 09:58

Re: the days of no debate being over: Not sure how much debate I’ve seen on this post. Just lots of people enjoying sharing similar views

Some debates have a natural endpoint whether you like it or not.

Gender identity - the subject of the OP - is self evidently a product of the social setting in which it is discussed. It doesn't exist apart from that. And any any all attempts to dress it up as "science" is ironically the same as a man dressing up in drag. No matter how hard he tries he won't be a woman. And no matter how hard gender identity tries it won't be science.

Science works by observing repeatable measurements for specified inputs. Gender identity works by talking bollocks very loudly. It's the current ages equivalent of astrology. Although I would wager more people know their starsign* than their gender identity. Any and all debates about astrology also end at the point where it's acknowledged as total bullshit (which is not to say it has no value).

*Western astrology, naturally.

UrsulasHerbBag · 05/02/2025 09:59

@CautiousLurker01 thank you for your post. I hope your daughter has a wonderful experience at university.

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 10:00

snowmichael · 05/02/2025 09:52

Biological sex?
Like XXY, XYY, and XX(male)?
Or people with both male and female genitalia?
Your ignorance is outrageous but not, sadly, astonishing

No one on earth is born with both male and female genitalia.

DSDs do not work how you think they do

Someone went to the hassle of doing a 1,000 word post above, quoting you ad showing you how it works

Go listen.

OP posts:
snowmichael · 05/02/2025 10:01

SernieBanders · 04/02/2025 11:14

@dizzydizzydizzy

"DM worked in a hospital lab on the 60s. It was her job to look at the chromosomes of people where it wasn't clear whether they were male or female. She used to get people with XXY or whatever."

People with DSDs are STILL either MALE OR FEMALE - never anything else. DSDs are very poorly understood, but you are always still male or female.

You're very fond of posting completely unscientific biologically incorrect tripe, aren't you
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780444632333000245

SernieBanders · 05/02/2025 10:01

snowmichael · 05/02/2025 09:57

> I agree there is only two sexes
Then you should educate yourself
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780444632333000245

Nothing in that article says there is more than two sexes.

Everyone, whatever DSD they have, is always, ALWAYS, either male or female.

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