Criticise my business plan

[somewhereinsuburbia]

It's an alcohol free bar. With all the mood, buzz, excitement of a normal bar but no alcoholic drinks are sold. Serves really nice, grown up non alcoholic cocktails, not super sweet bright pink juice. All the beers on draft are non alcoholic.
I thought with so many people not drinking, and cultures where the majority don't drink, it would probably be a success in a big city like London or Manchester. A lot of my Muslim friends have to meet in cafes which aren't the same in terms of atmosphere, and they all shut at 6.
We could also hold nights like sober speed dating, matching teetotal people with others, for either friendship or a relationship.
But someone must have tried it, it must have been thought of and trialled before, did it not work?

You also have to bear in mind that unlike pubs, you’re less likely to benefit from passing trade. Often I’ll be out for a walk with a friend or DH and we’ll walk past a really nice-looking inviting-feeling pub and spontaneously decide to drop in just for one drink. People who do drink alcohol aren't going to do that with an alcohol-free place, so you have to work extra hard to capture trade.

What about marketing your space as a phone free chill out space for grown ups? You could have poetry nights/board games/card games/paperbacks lying around. You could make it like a private members club for certain times but without the alcohol.

I can't see a late-night venue with no alcohol or phones being even remotely successful.

I think the problem is that there’s a crossover being assumed here between “people who don’t want to drink” and quite a random bundle of fairly niche interests. I like poetry, but I also like wine. I have a teetotal friend who is attached to her phone and social media as though they’re extensions of her. So neither of us are going to want to go to that venue.

I think it's a good idea, and could work well in the right area. Whilst a lot of people who don't drink are happy with cafes, as you say, most places like that aren't open in the evening. My daughter is a Muslim, and when she is in the UK, she really struggles to find anywhere that she can go to in the evenings to meet her friends that doesn't sell alcohol - and we live in London. I think most people I know would be happy to have an alcohol free night out, but bars like that don't generally exist. I think it would generate more custom if you sold food - maybe just a few things, like a halal meat dish, a non halal meat dish, a fish dish, and a couple of vegetarian/vegan options.

Agree with this, I'm done after 1 or maybe 2 soft drinks so there would need to be a very good food offering or I wouldn't end up spending much money.

I also resent paying close to alcohol prices for AF drinks because I know that alcohol is taxed so it should be more expensive than soft drinks.

I'd be interested to know if the sports angle would work though, I've never seen an AF venue that screened sports on a big screen?

I agree
I have muslim friends and while they may go for a coffee with me they generally socialise at each others houses.

But a Muslim can't go into a pub, restaurant etc that serves alcohol and not drink - it's not permitted. Depending on the OP's location, she's potentially got quite a large market. If she's also planning on selling alcohol free spirits, then I don;t think that would be excluding alcohol drinkers - I spent many years drinking gin, but I can't tell the difference between ordinary gin and some alcohol free brands.

Had your daughter tried around the Edgware Road area? There’s a huge Arabic presence and literally dozens of late night cafes, restaurants, dessert parlours, shisha bars and such which attract Arabs and non-Arab Muslims from all over London. Some places are completely alcohol-free whilst others serve alcohol but not as the main event.

I spent many years drinking gin, but I can't tell the difference between ordinary gin and some alcohol free brands

I've tried a few of these and not found one that could be mistaken for real gin.

@Growlybear83 while that's true, OP isn't planning on serving food, so I think it will be a very limited number of people (Muslim or otherwise) who are going to want to spend. £8-10 pounds on mocktails all evening.

A lot of the places that attract religious non-drinkers have another selling point - dessert, coffee, late night food, shisha etc. Somewhere that focuses on non-alcoholic craft beer and mocktails just isn't going to attract enough people to turn a profit long-term.

@Bjorkdidit Well I honestly can't tell the difference between the alcohol free Tanqueray or Gordon's and I was a gin drinker all my adult until I got to my early 60s.

I'm not sure there is a big enough market for this. There's a really nice late night cafe near me that looks more like a fancy bar. Serves nice alcohol free beers (on draft) and has 0% wines roo. The coffee is amazing which is why I go and they have a nice selection of light bites. They host game and quiz nights and have a selection of board games for people to play all the time. The latest I've been in there is around 9ish and it was quite busy but woth people drinking coffee rather than playing games.

I know plenty of Muslims that go to resturants that serve alcohol but don't drink - some even own them

@Hayley1256 If they following their faith strictly then they shouldn't be going into any bars, restaurants etc that serve alcohol.

OP - I think you also have to be careful about some of the drinks you would serve. A lot of wine is marketed as being alcohol free, but when you check the label, it does contain a tiny amount of alcohol.

But many Muslims aren't that strict. They will eat in or even run restaurants that serve alcohol. Or the ones who don't have an alcohol licence in their restaurant so they don't profit from it themselves almost always allow BYO.

Key word being "if" - many don't and are more than happy to socialise with drinkers or go to restaurants that serve alcohol. We even have Muslim-owned businesses that sell alcohol here - in fact, I'd say the vast majority of them do, and those that don't allow BYOB.

So while there may be a small market for non-drinkers who are happy to spend £8 on a single drink, it's highly unlikely that there'll be enough of them to sustain a business. I don't really drink but I wouldn't spend anywhere near that much on a drink - especially when I can just go to a regular pub and spend a fiver or less.

Yes, it's a nuts idea to open yet another board game cafe in the current climate. As someone who owns a retail gaming business and has a small venue where people can sit and play games (that they've bought in my store), it's almost impossible to turn a healthy profit on a business model focussed on getting bums on seats and people playing games. You can table charge people, but then you need to pay staff who will enforce the rules. You can try selling people board games, but then you end up having to sell them pretty much at cost, because people expect you to compete with Amazon prices. Then there's checking people haven't lost or stolen parts of the games, aren't bringing in their own food and drinks rather than buying from you etc.

A venue may look busy, but plenty of BGC owners are earning less than minimum wage. Speaking to a lot of the original BGC owners who opened in the 80s, they're really struggling in the current climate and the new budget announcements are very anti small business.

I can’t see there being any buzz or excitement. Sorry

@Cattery so are we really saying that booze really is the main thing we enjoy about socialising? How depressing

So while there may be a small market for non-drinkers who are happy to spend £8 on a single drink, it's highly unlikely that there'll be enough of them to sustain a business. I don't really drink but I wouldn't spend anywhere near that much on a drink - especially when I can just go to a regular pub and spend a fiver or less

I've got it! OP you need to open the AIBU cafe. No alcohol so it will appeal to Mumsnetters who's alcohol consumption is limited to looking at the sherry bottle at Christmas.

Make it a private members bar with John Lewis furnishings and Farrow and Ball paint but no external indication of what it is. Entry will be limited to members who have paid the reassuringly expensive membership fee, thus ensuring the success of your venture and that all clientele will be People Like Us.

Have different rooms where guests can talk to each other, or not, according to preference. Market the club on all the threads from OPs who have spent so long raising DC and rushing around that they've forgotten how to do anything for themselves or what it is that they like to do.

I don’t think it is “depressing” - it might be depressing for people with an alcohol problem, but for those of us who are perfectly capable of going out to share and enjoy a bottle of wine with a friend to have a good old catch up, the wine is part of the experience. If I want to socialise with friends in a way which doesn’t involve alcohol, we’ll arrange to go for a walk, a cycle, to a gallery, to the theatre, to an escape room, an activity night - not pay to sit somewhere and sip an overpriced soft drink.

@ComtesseDeSpair if you can't have fun without alcohol, that is an alcohol problem

I’m sober and I would definitely go to something like this, but you would need to pair it with other sources of bringing in money, events and a shop. Club Soda in London has done this very successfully. Some of the others, less so. The one in Manchester or Liverpool that recently closed. There’s a place called Dry Dock in Weymouth. I have a friend who seems to fairly successfully run a mobile AF bar for festivals and events. Look at what the successful ones have done right and the market locally. With Club Soda, I suspect they make most of their money in the bottle shop, not the bar.