Criticise my business plan

[somewhereinsuburbia]

It's an alcohol free bar. With all the mood, buzz, excitement of a normal bar but no alcoholic drinks are sold. Serves really nice, grown up non alcoholic cocktails, not super sweet bright pink juice. All the beers on draft are non alcoholic.
I thought with so many people not drinking, and cultures where the majority don't drink, it would probably be a success in a big city like London or Manchester. A lot of my Muslim friends have to meet in cafes which aren't the same in terms of atmosphere, and they all shut at 6.
We could also hold nights like sober speed dating, matching teetotal people with others, for either friendship or a relationship.
But someone must have tried it, it must have been thought of and trialled before, did it not work?

I think that strict muslims wouldn't go to places that played music etc anyway, its not just the alcohol.
I am sorry but I just don't see the point in this, I don't drink much but I can go to any pub and get a soft drink

As above for a lot of the set backs. While people are individually reducing or cutting out alcohol individually, your bar requires a whole group to commit to not drinking. I’m pregnant at the moment so not drinking, but when I’m out in a group, I imagine while the group might stay for one at you’re place, we’d be unlikely to stay for many because a bar which serves good alcoholic and non-alcoholic options would suit most groups better.

Also, my experience is that many high end cocktail bars and restaurants who put effort into their cocktail menus spend more on R&D of their non-alcoholic list because you’re starting with the challenge of not having alcohol, which has a lot of complex, savoury, and developed flavours which is inherent to the alcohol production. It takes a lot of time, specialist ingredients and is a different skillset to alcoholic cocktails. I was in a restaurant with a non-alcoholic drinks pairing at the weekend and the descriptions of how the drinks were crafted were in depth and drinks were incredible. But I paid the same as the alcoholic flights for that experience (£50/ 6 drinks), which a lot of people wouldn’t be prepared to do. Or at least not for more than one or two drinks.

There's a reason people generally stay in bars spending money for ages - and it's because alcohol is addictive. Remove the urge for more and people won't spend the same.

Think of people on nights out drinking pint after pint of beer - you wouldn't drink pint after pint of coke in the same way.

What would maybe be more sustainable business-wise would be to sell alcoholic drinks, but also offer the "best non-alcoholic selection in the UK" type idea - have a big selection of 0% beers on tap, mocktails and also do proper barista coffees all in one place.

But there are thousands of pubs where you can get both alcoholic and non alcoholic drinks. It's not just about alcohol but also feeling safe, a sense of community (there is a big teetotal community), different energy to those who are drinking (no judgement) and being able to order the nice stuff that's on display rather than loads of nice alcoholic drinks and one flat, European, mainstream lager in a bottle that's non alcoholic.

I would go to a no alcohol event, like stand up, music etc. but I would probably only buy one drink. The reason people buy lots of alcoholic drinks is for the buzz, not because they need 6 pints of fluid.
If my friends and I want an alcohol free evening we would probably go out for food, or someone's house.

A lot of bars make there money by double and triple dashing the mixers, if you are not selling alcohol you lose this revenue stream and your mark up is much lower meaning you have to sell a much higher volume to break even let alone make a profit. You would have a greater chance if you sold food and let's face it nearly all bars/pubs sell food at some point in the day to increase their income.

With alcohol, the more you drink the more you want - its a diuretic etc. So its possible for people to have quite a few pints etc. I'd think with soft drinks people would only have one or two. A lot of pubs that don't sell loads of alcohol (eg places where a lot of people have to drive to) make money from food instead (biggest mark ups on puddings). So you might need something else other than soft drinks.

As a Muslim, I wouldn't go to this to drink the non alcoholic wines or beers as this isn't in my culture. I wasn't brought up on drinking wine & beer so I wouldn't choose the non alcoholic equivalent. I hope I've explained myself clearly. I socialise mainly around food rather than drink and most Muslims and ME/Asian cultures do. Drink isn't an important part of our cultural socialising but food is.

V recently, I went to the Story House in Chester which is a library, independent cinema & all day bistro. Add a co-working space and community space & that is a more viable business proposition because all the community can use it at different times of the day. Don't limit yourself to a very niche business which relies on a very small % of people. Open up a business which serves all of the community & has multiple purposes as that will diversify your income streams.

I know nobody who would go to a vegan cafe just as a one off.

I know plenty who would eat a vegan dish as a one off.

I think that’s your key difference.

You sound like you’re trying to recreate the night out vibe with an alcohol free venue, which won’t be possible because a lot of the vibe comes from the alcohol and the merry people after drinking it. If you did by some miracle successfully recreate it, you might actually make it more difficult for recovering alcoholics as the ‘good vibe’ is more likely to make people want to go ‘properly out’ and carry on drinking. I think recovering addicts would largely avoid for this reason.

In terms of actual business plan (of which you don’t have, you just have an idea), when people are talking about food - the margins on food are extremely tight at the moment. It is very difficult to make a profit on food. So actually, adding food into the mix wouldn’t help you.

My tween loves a mocktail, but as others have said, it takes time to make them, but people will not pay the same kind of prices for a non alcoholic drink - or even close to the same prices. Generally your best profit comes from draft fizzy drinks and alcohol. Cocktails and mocktails are the most expensive to make. Cocktails you can (sometimes) price to make it work - mocktails you really can’t.

Niche venues very rarely work out. There’s a reason for this. I wouldn’t touch this idea with a barge pole, and certainly not with my savings!

As a non-drinker, I would prefer a nice café that sold coffees/ teas/ cakes etc but that was open later in the evening. I'd like to go out later to a cafe rather than a pub. So I suppose you could just have a late opening cafe that also.sold non alcoholic cocktails/ beers as well. I'm not sure it would work otherwise.

https://www.thebrink.org.uk/about-us/

I think if this could appeal to under 18s as well it could work. I know my DC when they were both under 18 struggled to find anywhere to hang out.

That might not be who you want to attract though.

The problem with this is the same problem that all of the (genius idea but all or most failed) soft play cafes had/have. Your tables will always be full, but your till will be close to empty.

One coffee, maybe a slice of cake, and you’re there for a couple of hours. It costs more to staff the place and have the lights and heating on.

It is a fab idea and great for customers but it does not make any money.

The recovering addict in my life happily goes to pubs etc these days with me, they obviously don't drink but don't mind others indulging.

If you want to make money or a business out of the low/no space then you can't just say 'here's a bar with no booze'. Alcohol dulls us so we can sit around in essentially a room for hours and have a great time. That's why pubs and bars work. You can't recreate that atmosphere without alcohol.

You need to create a space with something to 'do', be that craft, games, etc. Look at the likes of boom battle bar. Problem you then face is you've got a big up front cost to create an 'experience' and less options to increase basket/customer spend because booze = good profit margins/repeat sales. You can sell 5 pints to someone put not 5 lattes.

A better option for you would be the likes of pop up events, but I think what you're more looking for rather than a business is a community space for people to enjoy, which btw we DO need more of. I'm also a recovering addict and frankly going to an alcohol free bar sounds like hell because I would be bored in about 5 minutes (just as I am when I go out to a licenced premise), so instead I fill my time and evenings with hobbies and interests etc

I think you'd do better with a late night cafe.

I might have one non alcoholic cocktail but that would be about my limit.

I'd rather be able to have an evening cup of tea and bite to eat. But really, I could do this in any of the places that also serve alcohol.

So to attract a specific ethnic group it would need to be focused around that and perhaps serve specialist food that isn't already widely catered for.

You need a good USP to be a successful Temperance bar but it was religion made them popular in the 18th and 19th century. I think there is still a cordial place in Lancashire called Mr Fitzherbert or something.

https://www.storyhouse.com/

How about more of an activity bar - like Bounce (table tennis) or a late night board game cafe - where there's something to appeal to the drinkers as well?

I just don't think your target audience will be large enough to be sustainable. I say that as a teetotal in London in her 20s, who's organised large events/meet-ups and had to juggle trying to please everyone before. Most of us are happy as long as there's a decent alcohol free selection in a regular bar. The few who won't/can't go into pubs normally wouldn't want to regularly go to an alcohol free one either, because the pub atmosphere is built for drinkers - and are also happy with their normal hangouts (in densely populated Muslim areas near me it tends to be lots of dessert shops open late, which really is the dream!)

They're not likely to spend much money though - especially if there's no food or entertainment on offer. They might be bums on seats but that doesn't lead to money in the till unfortunately.

Also to those suggesting activities or board games - that might fill the place up but again it's unlikely to actually make you a profit unless you charge a hefty entrance fee or also offer food, or something to encourage people to put their hands in their pockets.

Also, a lot of traditional pubs have quizzes, board games and food already - so OP would have to offer something new and attractive to drinkers to draw in the crowds.

I appreciate I sound really negative- I'm actually pretty much tee-total myself so would be fine going somewhere like this - however DH and all my friends drink so it really wouldn't be somewhere we'd go as it wouldn't really appeal to them on a regular basis.

I mean, you can sit at home and drink soft drinks and play board games for free - so a cafe or whatever needs to offer something extra on top or it's pointless.

But despite there being a teetotal community, most alcoholics aren’t solely friends with other alcoholics. How often would your partner’s friends who don’t have alcohol problems actually want to join him in the alcohol free cafe? They might be willing to do it occasionally, in support of him, but they’re never going to replace all their social pub outings with ones which don’t involve alcohol.

The other sticking point is that large cities, where there’s a larger population of non-drinkers, are very spread out. I’m in London. If I’m casually meeting friends at the pub, we pick somewhere easy for everyone to get to. We aren’t picking somewhere miles away from any of us. So your target market therefore becomes even more limited to people who live close to your venue AND actively don’t want to be near alcohol.

I think if you looked at running a Halal cafe with a bar area off it, you may be onto a viable business. I'd steer away from the board game cafe model, as the market is generally oversaturated by this point and it's really hard to make a profit.

Also another point of negativity is that a lot of what people are suggesting to get people there (groups of teens, board game vibes, activities, more of a late night cafe) seems to go against the vibe of the high end cocktail bar the OP is suggesting. If the price point of the cocktails is £9-13, then that’s appealing to a different crowd than people who want to come in for an evening tea and cake, or most under-18s. And if the cocktails aren’t the star, then I’d have no interest at all (though like I said, I wouldn’t be propping up the business anyway!)