Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

[Berlinerschnauzer]

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point.
Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter.
Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis.
Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks
as per usual ?

The different level is partially caused by different high school leaving age.

England stops general education quite early (15), than focus on A levels and end at 17. Some countries continue general education (at least for academical tracks) till 17/18/19, so the high school leavers naturally are more mature and have better knowledge of practically everything.

When I worked with recent UK bachelor graduates, I was confused by their lack of general knowledge and maturity compared to university students in my country. When I learned about the age difference, everything started to make sense. They were just younger.

The best universities are ranked highly because of high quality research, international collaboration, business impact and other factors.

Research costs money, good researchers like expensive facilities and don't like teaching students.

Endowments are funded by donations for specific things - philanthropists, alumni and corporates give money for specific purposes. It often helps fund research, innovation, entrepreneurship and support programmes and things which governments and tuition fees don't pay for.

I'd add to that and say that I work in a university department where we have one masters course that is about 99% international students. The fee income from that course is so high that it basically keeps us afloat. It enables us to run courses that are 99% UK students that would otherwise be financially unviable. It's in a subject that would be considered vital/a public good by most people.

I can't express how mediocre most British private school kids' education is compared to the rigour I see here. It's shocking to me, as it wasn't always thus. So much dumbing down. (I have relatives and friends' children to look at.)

Don’t all schools -matte and private - have to teach the syllabus for GCSEs and A levels? So if there is dumbing down surely that’s because the syllabus has been dumbed down?

So can UK students not get on this masters course?

Do you only take in international students into it?

And do you not take academic grades into account , for admission?

I went to university in the days when there were fewer international students and we were given both tuition and maintenance grants. But back then, far fewer domestic students went to university. I can still remember how astounded I was at the percentage of students who had a public or private school background. So it was much more elite back then.

Today, more domestic students go to university full stop because of student loans (introduced in my final year!) and the international students. So if there were no international students, the government is definitely going to either cut domestic places as well or make the cost of them prohibitive for ordinary Joes.

I was discussing the decline in international students with a senior member of university staff recently. He put this down to other countries/universities upping their game rather than anything to do with Visa. There is much more competition for students now. Plus things like marking strikes so students don’t graduate at the right time (and therefore losing job/further study opportunities) hitting reputations both of individual universities and uk universities more generally.

International students pay more.

It was only with the decline of the aristocracy and the need to attract the (upper) middle classes funding did academic outcomes become important.

I am sure that is true but was it also partly because in the 1970s galloping inflation meant school fees shot up and therefore parents who were forking out larger sums wanted to get good results for their money?

I would have thought the answer to this thread is obvious.

International students pay more!

Well, I mean, you’re wrong.

They attract the best of the best and maintain their reputation thanks in part to the top crop of international students who produce results. Or did you think they just pay and then can't keep up with the courses.

Your son is just not good enough to compete against home students, let alone international ones!

Not sure why his dads blaming foreigners, that's life.

The entitlement is hilarious

I have an undergraduate degree from a middling non-RG university. I also have a Master's and PhD from a RG university, and taught at two different high-ranking RG universities. In my experience the teaching at the non-RG university was on par, and at times better than what I have seen at RG universtities, including more contact time with senior academics rather than PhD students.

Money.

The answer is obvious and has been cited many times. Money. This isn’t even a question.

What you may need to realise is that every top university in the world has foreign students. That’s just the way it is. Oxbridge aren’t reserved for British kids. In the same way Brits will
go to Harvard, or MIT or Yale.

Globally, by which I mean comparing the best of the UK with the best of [insert country name], Harrow is mediocre. Eton turns out some incredible students every year, and more just "excellent" or "very good" students. The Eton experience doesn't always translate outside the UK, however, so they're going to be aiming for only UK universities but now against stiffer and more competition.

Yes, that's exactly right.

Those of us who were around when O Levels became GCSEs will recognise this.

I was wondering if this thread was a thinly veiled excuse for 'forriners are stealing our education'. When I was a student, my foreign classmates enhanced my university experience. I learnt a great deal from them.

DC2 went to a selective private school that used to be in top-15. It's not a public school so no aristocracy as far as I know.
Ukrainian refugee children from ordinary schools are much better educated than our cohort.

I work at a university. International students pay about three times as much as British students. Most of our income comes from foreign students.

STEM - of course.
Classics - I agree with you. Query utility of this education on the global stage (given competition is global).
Humanities - disagree. Some of the North American liberal arts degrees put UK universities to shame. Of course, depends on the college and depends on the degree, but students are on it and they know where the UK is lagging.

Wrong about what?

If students and teachers have similar qualities in two countries, the 17 yo will inevitably be less mature and know less than the 19 yo.

It doesn't just pay for the hours they are in class though. The lecturers have to be paid for the teaching time, of course, but there is also prep and marking time to account for, plus consultation hours and the like. Then there are departmental support staff involved in day to day things like managing assignment submissions, extensions, admin related to processing results etc. Some departments will have specialist support staff such as lab technicians, learning technologists.
Then there are the additional university services such as the library, mental health support, disability support, careers guidance, campus security (who play a huge role in mental health crisis intervdmtion) and maintenance. Then add the non-departmental admin areas such as admissions/registrations/graduations, governance teams, legal, finance, HR.
They are large, complex organisations that are hugely expensive to run.
I won't lie and say there isn't fat to trim and that all universities run efficiently (sector staff would laugh at you), but the £9k home fee doesn't touch the sides in terms of how much it costs to actually provide the degree.

Other countries consider it worthwhile investing in their bright young people’s future.

I made the point at the start of this thread that Chinese PhD students have no interest in staying in the UK and also that their presence raises concerns about the theft of valuable research intellectual property but my comments were taken down for some reason, even though this is widely documented and has been for years.