Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

[Berlinerschnauzer]

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point.
Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter.
Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis.
Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks
as per usual ?

Once onto the degree of their choice, they pay students with better English or tutors (private / outside the uni system) to teach them in their native language and assist them with coursework that must be completed in English.

Do they not have to do written exams in a hall with an invigilator? Or does that not happen any longer? (I’m showing my age).

Loads of postgraduate degrees are 100% coursework-based now, so no.

Reducing numbers of international students would likely lead to a reduction in places for uk students as universities would have to cut more departments/courses to remain viable.

UK government funding for universities has been slashed to the bone. Having international students is the only way to keep afloat.

As for Oxbridge, their day to day funding has also been cut and like any rich asset owner, they refuse to sell off capital to fund daily expenditure.

@LolaPeony thank you for answering my question.

It's far harder to get into Oxford or Cambridge as an undergraduate from overseas than from the UK. This is quite right: our oldest universities are there to educate the UK élite. However, some very brilliant overseas students add to the intellectual mix and since they pay handsomely for the privilege, it's win-win for everyone.

I run meetings with students and regularly have to get interpreters in as the students have no idea what I am saying.

@Kindling1970 do the students have to pay for the interpreters?

Ok, graduate admissions stats
www.postgraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/pg_admissions_statistics_2023-2024_0.pdf

If I understand it correctly, the Oxbridge graduates don't follow with masters, because they get it automatically in a few years. And in general, the interest in masters degree in the UK is relatively low, while for the international students it is the second chance to get the UK education from well known school.*

It says the UK students are only 17% od applications, but 33% of admissions.

The nationalities table looks very differently for applicants, but quite similar for accepted students.

* In my EU country, university education is free (for students able to study in local language), so it makes sense to get the bachelor degree locally and try shorter masters abroad.

The CEFR (used to assess a student's level of language proficiency, for those who don't know) isn't a sound measure. All it does is show the a student has reached a particular level academically. That's very different from being immersed in a language for hours every day and having active language skills capable of responding fluently to any ituation that occurs. It's unfair on domestic students whose learning is impeded by international students not fluent in English.

DC1 has just graduated from Imperial. Also massive number (30%?) of international students, with the majority being from China. Imperial is clearly rolling in cash and lavishes it on the students. DC1 had jobs at the uni for up to £17/hour and also was given a grant of 2k a year because our income was under £60k.

I am personally not convinced that imperial needs the money from the international students. I wouldn't be surprised if they get much more money from consulting services, especially in computing.

One thing I would say is that DC1 always said they were massively behind all the international students, especially in maths, even though DC1 did 4 A Levels, all with Astar. From what DC1 was saying, the A Level equivalent abroad is a far higher standard. So maybe part of the reason for top universities having international students is due to their quality?

I also think that Oxbridge and Imperial are top ranking universities worldwide, so students want to come for the prestige. Also it helps that the teaching language is English - everyone learns English.

Because successive govs starved HE and research of funding and it's the only way they could survive. Plus the pension fund is unmanageable.

This is why the government is tightening up student Visas.

Depends on the subject. I have B2 German and I think I would be able to study Maths for example, but not Philosophy. I certainly can read fiction though.

Do works at uni and he says they all want the international students as they pay more

an endowment of around 8 billion would at 4% provide a passive income of around 320 million. Taking say another 10% = 300 foreign students, instead of domestic ones would bring in an extra 25,000 per student or 7.5 million. It's pocket money compared to income from the endowment.
Imperial, UCL and others are taking 60% overseas because they have to - they have no comparable endowment. Oxford and Cambridge are rich enough to choose how many they take. Taking e.g. 25% is a choice, not a necessity.

There is a lot of truth in this.

I went to a top 3 private school in the UK.

Undergrad at Oxbridge equivalent in UK (v niche).

Masters at Oxbridge equivalent abroad.

Now live in a 3rd country, educating my DC at Westminster-equivalent school.

I can't express how mediocre most British private school kids' education is compared to the rigour I see here. It's shocking to me, as it wasn't always thus. So much dumbing down. (I have relatives and friends' children to look at.)

Add to that the weird obsession in the UK with state versus private, Oxbridge versus RG versus other. Parents lose their minds over the most minor things, not seeing the wood for the trees, while also resting on decades-old laurels.

The rest of the world has moved on in leaps and bounds. It's like they're all driving Maclaren supercars (at the top levels) while the UK is chugging along in its good old vintage Jag. Of course, there are absolutely stellar homegrown British students, but nowhere near as many as there were 30-odd years ago and DEFINITELY not compared to worldwide competition.

Well that's not true. The vast majority of international students are from China and (generally) they have no interest in remaining in the UK after graduation. The degree is a means to an end for them - a British education is a prestigious thing to have, it provides them with an international experience not unlike a gap year, and they go home to get good jobs.

The student visa rules are strict, and attendance/engagement with studies is monitored. Students who aren't engaging can be removed from the UK.

Students are only allowed to remain in the UK for a short period of time after completing their studies - basically enough time to attend a graduation ceremony (family members can attend as long as they get tourist visas, plus theg stay in hotels and spend money celebrating in restaurants etc).
There is a graduate visa but it is only for 2 years after successfully completing studies, and is £820 plus an NHS fee of £1035.

It's not that easy, or cheap to stay after graduation even if the students want to.

The other big market for international students was India, but that all but collapsed when it became harder to stay in the UK post-graduation. Those students are interested in remaining in the country they complete their studies in and using their skills there. So they started looking at USA, Canada, Australia instead.

I think that the problem with the CEFR levels is that universities set the bar too low. Students who get 8/9 overall are usually pretty fluent. Not those who get 7/9 overall. There's a massive difference between the two.

Quite simple really. Money.

They make more money from international students.

In case of Imperial it's not just money - you admit yourself that international students are much more advanced in maths (STEM in general, in fact) than British. Imperial needs them for brains.
Do they still need Imperial - that's an interesting question...

I posted about this about 18 months ago as my sons creative course is 80% overseas students who can't speak english, they will openly admit they come to the UK to get an "easy" degree and then go home and never use it – Meanwhile my sons teaching is way behind where he should be as the tutors are managing the language issues best they can.. with no translators at all

I was told they should have passed some English tests but its appears that many unis skip that.

I did on that thread get called all kinds of names, but basically without the overseas students his Uni would close, just seems such a bloody waste of time and effort and its made his whole very expensive experience a bit poo and had we known about the issues wouldn't have selected that uni.

For STEM - yes, I agree 100%. Classics and some humanities can be a different story.

I that universities are a scam in some ways.

It's all about making money for them and getting students into debt

I can't express how mediocre most British private school kids' education is compared to the rigour I see here. It's shocking to me, as it wasn't always thus. So much dumbing down. (I have relatives and friends' children to look at.)

Top private schools, like Eton and Harrow, historically were very mediocre academically as they educated the upper classes who went on to run their estates, so academia wasn’t needed but the school provided the necessary contacts. It was only with the decline of the aristocracy and the need to attract the (upper) middle classes funding did academic outcomes become important.