Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

[Berlinerschnauzer]

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point.
Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter.
Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis.
Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks
as per usual ?

Incredible that anyone would believe a professor would provide an hour's teaching for £18! (to include all the associated preparation, marking etc too)

I pay part time hourly paid staff £18 p/h but they generally don't have the additional responsibilities that a contracted academic will have.
If they are taking on the role of a lecturer or senior lecturer then they are paid at an enhanced rate which could be double or even triple.

My commercial hourly rate is £87 p/h which is what the university charges for my time if I'm delivering externally.

UK undergraduate students pay around £9k a year to attend university. Universities spend a lot on recruiting overseas students. Some courses, especially sciences, need a minimum number of students to run. Sometimes that number is only reached with the inclusion of a number of overseas students.
From Chat GPT…
The tuition fees for international students at UK universities vary widely based on the university, the course of study, and whether the student is from the EU or outside the EU. Here’s a general breakdown:

Undergraduate Tuition Fees (per year)

•	Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences: £10,000 – £20,000
•	Science and Engineering: £12,000 – £30,000
•	Medicine and Dentistry: £30,000 – £60,000 (or more)

Postgraduate Tuition Fees (per year)

•	Taught Master’s Degrees: £11,000 – £32,000
•	MBA Programs: £20,000 – £60,000
•	PhD Programs: £15,000 – £30,000 (often lower, as some are funded or offer stipends)

Additional Costs

•	Living Expenses: Typically £12,000 – £18,000 per year, depending on the city (London is more expensive).
•	College Fees (for some universities, like Oxford and Cambridge): £8,000 – £10,000 per year.

Variations by University

•	Top Universities (Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, LSE, UCL, etc.) charge higher fees.
•	Scottish Universities may have different fee structures, with EU students previously benefiting from lower fees (now changed post-Brexit).

£18.30 times 3, not £18. As the document to which I linked states.

Money.

Oops sorry, very careless reading on my part!

That’s still only around £48 per hour to include several other hours in preparation, marking, and administration related to teaching and marking. For 3 students I’d estimate at least another 2-3 hours + 1 hour supervision. So that’s £18-12 an hour basically.

The NMW is what - £11 per hour to go up to just over £12 ph in April.

Regardless of the hourly rate for teaching staff, it's still a bit like saying it only costs £0.42 to buy the ingredients for one cupcake so why am I paying £2.50 for one.

Exactly!
Even if the £3600 on teaching wasn't a massive underestimate you also need to include the professional services support without which teaching couldn't take place in the first place!!

I was earning more than £20 p.h. on a teaching contract in the 1990's.

Money. Take St. Andrew’s as an example - incredibly competitive to get into if you are from the UK, comparable to Oxbridge. If you’re a wealthy American however then you’re practically guaranteed to be accepted.

I think those of us who work in universities, and understand the multiplicity of things that universities do, and the array of support services needed (as I say upthread, think of what's needed to support a town of 20,000 to 30,000 residents), overestimate the general public's knowledge of how universities work, and what their purpose is. This thread shows brilliantly the very limited understanding of the public about universities.

What are you basing this opinion on?

@LittleBigHead true, and yet it shouldn't be that difficult. I'm not a medical professional, and yet I know that if I go to hospital, the cost of treating me is not just calculated based on the doctor's hourly rate.

I think those of us who work in universities, and understand the multiplicity of things that universities do, and the array of support services needed (as I say upthread, think of what's needed to support a town of 20,000 to 30,000 residents), overestimate the general public's knowledge of how universities work, and what their purpose is. This thread shows brilliantly the very limited understanding of the public about universities.

Oh absolutely.
I was doing a lot of student finance talks when the £9k fees were introduced.
I was on the receiving end of a lot of anger from teachers and parents.
I tried to explain that the reality was that universities weren't getting any more money (it was less in many cases) it was the funding model that has changed and that the government had shifted the cost of HE to the individual students.

The perception of paying £9k also meant that students expected more which meant universities had to invest more money into the student experience, which of course costs money!

I suppose what I find particularly grating is the assumption that is often present on mumsnet threads about HE, that universities are screwing over UK students and only care about money. The institution where I work is very far from perfect and there are frequently decisions made that leave me tearing my hair out, but the one thing I can say with absolute certainty is that the needs of students are always taken into consideration - in fact they are always prioritised over everything else. And tbh, that's UK students in particular (I say this as someone who works mostly with overseas students).

@whyschoolwhy I couldn't agree more.
It's probably why I get quite defensive of the HE sector. I know that the vast majority of staff go above and beyond for the students.
We just happen to be doing it in very challenging circumstances.

I don't doubt that most people have a weak grasp of the organisational structure of a university.

Nevertheless, parents are perfectly entitled to eg have an opinion about the quality of feedback on an essay from a TA or Associate Lecturer and can see for themselves when it is rubbish and feel aggrieved on behalf of their child.

Unless you also have a PhD, have taught undergraduates, are very well acquainted with the subject your (adult) child is studying, and have an honest picture of the extent to which your child engaged with the module and support available whilst writing the essay, can you really ‘see for yourself’ that feedback is rubbish?

Nevertheless, parents are perfectly entitled to eg have an opinion about the quality of feedback on an essay from a TA or Associate Lecturer and can see for themselves when it is rubbish and feel aggrieved on behalf of their child.

Not sure what this has to do with university finances or international students but if a student has a complaint about the quality of teaching or feedback there are policies and procedures in place should the student wish to complain.

A friend worked in a university admissions department and said that they had certain courses which were purely designed to attract rich international students with spaces filled completely by them. This was a red brick uni which had incorporated some other higher educations institutions into it and the courses created weren't at the main campus or were they things that that university would traditionally have offered. Like others have said, it subsidises everyone else.

Int students pay more

Lots of parents have some or all of those things!

Haven't read the full thread. But from way way over the world, it's the same the world over. International students = big income for the unis.

The figures I found quoted 1 in 6 are American.