Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

[Berlinerschnauzer]

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point.
Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter.
Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis.
Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks
as per usual ?

It is often not just parents who are paying the bills, but extended family or sometimes a community

Yes, very true. And it’s common for older siblings to pay for a younger siblings studies once they’re back from studying abroad and earning.

Inadequate English? Do you know the level of English required to study in the UK?

And are you saying that universities are in cahoots with students to pass them because a community back home paid their fees?

Speaking as a tutor closely involved in Oxford undergraduate decisions, it is simply because the aim is to admit the brightest, regardless of background or nationality. There are no quotas or targets and no intended bias either in favour of international students or against them. The only exception is medicine where the government restricts the number of international students. If you look at the statistics, International applicants are less likely to be offered an Oxford place than UK students, but I think that is partly a result of them applying to the more competitive courses, and partly because some such students less well advised on where/how to apply.

I also don't think it is at all clear that reserving more places for UK students would be beneficial for the country, for a number of reasons. There is the direct financial benefit of fees from international students. But also many highly skilled international students stay and benefit the UK economy and those who return maintain valuable connections. Moreover, having access to the best students makes UK university institutions better.

And in broad global terms, I think the world is a better place if young people (actually, all people) are free to study and work internationally and alongside others from all over the world. Thanks Brexit.

Inadequate English? Do you know the level of English required to study in the UK?

Are you aware of the industry out there faking these results? Or tried teaching students with supposedly adequate English and tried marking their exam scripts? Or just held a conversation with them? There are huge numbers of students without adequate English attending UK universities. A PP even noted her university having to pay for translators.

And are you saying that universities are in cahoots with students to pass them because a community back home paid their fees?

Lecturing staff are often under huge pressure to pass international students as they are so valuable to the universities - if they went home having failed their course it would become known and impact on their ability to recruit other students.

A little off topic, but flawless GCSE results are not necessarily the best indicator of academic ability/potential at a higher level. A few years ago I taught an undergraduate who didn't just get the top grade in every GCSE that she took, but literally got 100% in every GCSE. She was a very average Oxford undergraduate, not a star at all. GCSEs are not actually intellectually stretching for many students and some of the very smartest students will make some mistakes that bring their marks down relative to slightly less smart but more careful students. And I know many truly brilliant academics whose GCSE or A level results were at a more middling level.

Not that I think we have any guaranteed way to choose the very best students given the time and resources available to us.

I'm pretty sure the comments about "inadequate English" do not remotely apply to any of the international students who've got through the Oxbridge aptitude tests and interviews. I doubt any with inadequate English would survive supos and the rigours of their exams either.

I grant unlikely at Oxford.

@Weepixie thank you for answering my question.

Lecturers are not "under huge pressure to pass international students". There's probably a more lenient approach to students in general these days in UK universities - with pressures on staff to cater to students with 'wellbeing issues' and more flexible approaches to mitigating circumstances requests. But there's no pressure to pass international students specifically, due to their having paid more fees - or if there is, it's isolated cases, not a 'huge' issue.

I'm repeated amazed by just how good the English of almost all our international students is. Both written and spoken. We don't really make any allowances and the average standard is not noticeably different than our UK students. Just a little more formal (which isn't necessarily a bad thing!) and sometimes using a turn of phrase that wouldn't normally by a native speaker. But it's pretty subtle. Astonishing really when most of them are over here for the first time aged 18.

Lecturing staff are often under huge pressure to pass international students as they are so valuable to the universities - if they went home having failed their course it would become known and impact on their ability to recruit other students.

This absolutely not true at my university

My experience with international undergraduate students was that many of them had actually been educated in the UK public school system, though obviously not all. Others had been educated in English medium schools in various countries.

Surely that’s more a commentary on your observational skills though. 😀

Undergrads at St Andrews, most recent year for which those pesky facts also known as data published at www.hesa.ac.uk

Total Undergrads 9560

Scottish 2835 29.7%

English 2390 25%

RUK 240 2.5%

UK. 5465 57.2%

International 4095. 42.8%

Edinburgh undergrads

Scottish 34%

All UK 67%

international 33%

now in terms of fee income split that would look very different.

Yes that's true of some of my undergraduates, but definitely not all.

Others had been educated in English medium schools in various countries

Or schools that split the curriculum 50/50 between the native language and English.

Or schools that teach all subjects in the native language but English is taught as a second language from about the age of 3.

And it’s good you’ve brought up English medium schools - where I live families who put their children into these schools are not entitled to scholarships just as families who put their children into what could be considered other expensive fee paying schools are usually not given scholarships either because of the advantages they have.

Scholarships for the most part go to students who’ve gone through the government school system as well as those who are at other disadvantages. These schools would be government schools with children being taught English from grade 1 but if they go to a nursery beforehand it would be taught there from about 3.

@ErrolTheDragon was I think referring to undergrads, who are very much in a clear majority at both Oxford and Cambridge. would it help if I posted the numbers and percentages from HESA@LondonLawyer. more than happy to do so if that would be helpful. Errol has already posted one of the Oxbridge links but HESA provides a neat little table covering every UK uni.

One takeaway from this thread is, that there is a big difference between international undergraduate population and international masters population - in numbers (percentage of the course), in motivation (seems separate masters doesn't make sense for home students in many fields) and probably in quality (if there are no invigilated exams at some master programs, it opens more possibilities)

I absolutely know that a lot of foreign students are accepted onto UK post-graduate courses without adequate English - yes, there is a required standard, but either it isn't high enough or the testing isn't thorough enough, because many just don't have a good enough level of English language. I've met many of them through work. They need interpreters to prepare legal cases and at court.

I've met many of them through work. They need interpreters to prepare legal cases and at court.

LondonLawyer are these qualified lawyers practising in UK?

I agree, not particularly common at Oxbridge.
For many years, however, there have been very large numbers of international students doing cheap post-grad courses, often at colleges who get their courses validated by universities rather than taught directly by the universities. In a few particular academic areas, the actual value of the course is minimal, and the opportunity to work / live in London for 15 months or so on the visa and then a post-study work visa is the reason people do it.

No, they aren't - they are parties in cases. Mostly immigration-related issues.

Ah, ok. Thank you LondonLawyer.

Not necessarily - some european courses are taught in English. And of course they can study in English speaking countries too.

Completely false where I am. We don't know who students are whilst marking exams anyway.

For many years, however, there have been very large numbers of international students doing cheap post-grad courses

Just from the unis that would normally be found in the various league tables these are the 20 with the highest international percentage of postgrads (all so both taught and research. As you indicate @LondonLawyer the mix is not the higher, or in many instances even mid ranked unis. LSE and Southampton are at the upper end do both feature, and there are two more specialised arts unis. But even discounting those four, still leaves c.85,000+ PG students

University for the Creative Arts 87.8% 1,910

University of Bedfordshire 83.3% 4,510

Ravensbourne University London 82.5% 400

LSE 78.1% 5,740

The University of East London 76.0% 8,410

The University of the West of Scotland 74.0% 4,890

The University of Greenwich 73.7% 8,285

University of the Arts, London 72.7% 4,440

University of Hertfordshire 71.7% 13,440

Coventry University 71.1% 9,325

Glasgow Caledonian University 71.0% 5,250

The University of Southampton 70.5% 7,270

Teesside University 69.5% 7,475

De Montfort University 69.2% 4,670

The University of Bradford 69.1% 3,285

Roehampton University 68.8% 4,155

Brunel University London 68.4% 5,190

York St John University 67.8% 2,245

Solent University 66.2% 715

The University of Westminster 66.1% 3,180

Also completely false at my university. We mark anonymously.

And if you're experienced, you can easily tell where a student has ideas, and is thinking, even if their spoken expression and written English are not what we might wish. We do it all the time for native English speakers with learning disabilities such as dyslexia.