Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

[Berlinerschnauzer]

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point.
Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter.
Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis.
Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks
as per usual ?

Or a university system that prioritises elite training of the UK population so the country can compete on the world stage?

And how better to do that than to train them by and alongside educated people from around the world! Thus rendering them fit to compete at a global level!

From an economic standpoint what is wrong with charging overseas students fees that cover the costs of their education plus a healthy margin, if they are prepared to pay? And to use that margin to subsidise the cost of educating home students?

Ethically the right thing to do is to favour your own nationals.

Our brightest young people can also apply to study at universities overseas if they choose to.

Presumably if UK students were applying to university in a non English speaking country, they would have to have fluency in the language?

I never said there was anything wrong with that. I said that if you were to limit the admission of international students to only the very elite, then it wouldn't work. Because there wouldn't be enough income.

Your ethics are your own, they're certainly not mine.

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point

Didn’t it occur to him that even Cambridge didn’t have even one international student studying there your son still may not have been bright enough for a place when up against home grown talent?

You might think so, but there are universities which teach in English.

Here's a list of some.

"I just looked up Oxford University income for last year. It seems publishing is one of their biggest sources of income, way above international student fees."

Publishing houses are a separate financial unit - nothing to do with the university’s finances. So much misinformation. No, we are not a profit making entity. Any surplus goes back to subsidising education. Hence back to home students.

As I said before, admissions is a meritocratic process. We want the best of the best. This makes the UK one of the best places for education and science. The philosophy has placed us at the top, and we are able to compete with much larger and richer universities across the world.

There is a lot of competition (3 mil UCAS applications per year. About 30 thousand of these are from China.) In the UK top students who apply are top students from the UK - Chinese applicants are the top from a much much bigger population pool. Regardless of this, our home students do very well.

Students who graduate from our university, regardless of where they came from, if they stay in the UK (and very many do), become wonderful positive contributors to the UK - scientists, business owners, engineers, doctors, artists. We try to balance admissions numbers on background, demographics, and a whole host of other personal factors. Nowhere in this process there is any influence on student acceptance numbers from overseas. I worked in three universities, all were the same. I can imagine scepticism but there really is no-one telling anyone how many students should come from where. I can imagine, on the contrary, if there was a massive, atypical overshoot that could raise questions. I am not saying this is for the whole of the UK university landscape - my sample size is three.

Why would they do that if it puts them out of business. If the UK government wants universities to prioritise UK students they need to pay for it.

Publishing houses are a separate financial unit - nothing to do with the university’s finances.

And yet the chart I posted above comes from Oxford University’s own financial statement for 2023/24.

@AdaAndCissie thank you for that link - how fascinating that so many universities all over the world offer courses in English, I had no idea that was the case.

@nameychangey111
We try to balance admissions numbers on background, demographics, and a whole host of other personal factors.

I know there are contextual offers for UK students, but how do you discover the financial background of overseas students? If, say, a Korean or Chinese person applies are you able to check details of their education or wealth?
International fees are much higher - are these paid for by the student’s parents or do overseas governments pay?

Not necessarily. It's now standard for universities to teach in English in some countries which aren't English-speaking. Some universities do a few courses in English, some all or many. My BIL says there are lots of post graduate degrees in Germany taught in English now, for example. It's not difficult to do a degree taught in English in, say, Italy or Holland, either.

My BIL says there are lots of post graduate degrees in Germany taught in English now, for example. It's not difficult to do a degree taught in English in, say, Italy or Holland, either.

Are these courses attended by people from English speaking countries, or also, say in Germany, by Germans or other nationalities who can speak English?

The only Chinese students at university in the UK are from incredibly wealthy backgrounds, or moderately wealthy with significant connections. The cost is so high, and so much higher than domestic universities, that only the very richest families can even consider it.

A lot varies depending on the type of course, but in general non EU students doing an undergraduate degree in London are probably spending £100,000 a year, including visas and accommodation. Student accommodation near where I live for international students averages about 500 quid a week, up to 850 or so, including bills but not meals.

There’s an entire procedure the students go through to prove they have the qualifications required for the course as well as the finances. They also go through UCAS when applying.

And where does their funding come from - my children and now the eldest of my grandchildren have been funded privately by us. Lots of students are self funded. Others are funded by their governments who provide scholarships.

It’s not as if the students pay with green shield stamps and get into Uni just because.

Are these courses attended by people from English speaking countries, or also, say in Germany, by Germans or other nationalities who can speak English?

The courses are attended by anyone from anywhere who has the entry qualifications and level of English required to do the course.

English is the international language of so many fields that lots of countries nowadays do offer further education in English.

So for eg, one of my Arabic speaking grandchildren who’s also fluent in English is considering a university in Madrid where the course is done in English. Holland is another place currently popular as is Germany but the latter not as much as before.

From what the OP has said, her DS very likely is 'bright enough' - but so are several times as many applicants for each place. He may well be brighter than some of those who do get places. (I've said this before, because it's true.)

For the students who do get places at oxbridge, the international students add diversity - certainly DDs 'friendship group' spanned quite a few nationalities - but 'home' students are very much the majority at UG level.

"Very much the majority" is pushing it - 41% of Cambridge students are non-UK. So a majority are UK, but not by all that much. UCL is now about half and half.

If students from poor countries returned home to boost their countries that would be good. Sadly, from what I've read, a few obtain visas to work in the UK but many just overstay student visas and and end up as modern-day slaves, like delivering pizzas, or they go off to other first world countries with good salaries. Going home to peanuts is not enticing! It's worth noting that many foreign students are on scolarships from abroad and those whose families can pay for them might be from the governing elite with dubious money.

Sorry, not answering your question because I haven't a clue BUT it sounds like the kind of thing we, oldies, used to march about with placards?? There must be soo many kids in your son's position. Maybe he should start a Facebook group anonymously since he'll be in prison for racism otherwise. Mind you, prisons probably have automatic entrance to OxBridge!

From what the OP has said, her DS very likely is 'bright enough' - but so are several times as many applicants for each place. He may well be brighter than some of those who do get places. (I've said this before, because it's true.)

My comment wasn’t in any way intended as a put down regarding the young lads abilities. Yes he seems like a fantastic candidate but it just hasn’t worked out for him and dad who wants to lash out has decided it’s down to the foreign students.

The higher education thread has loads of posts at certain times of the year regarding extremely high achievers missing out on places at these universities and parents not understanding why. It’s very sad and a lot to process for the family.

"Very much the majority" is pushing it - 41% of Cambridge students are non-UK. So a majority are UK, but not by all that much. UCL is now about half and half.

I said at UG level, which is currently a bit over 75% home if I've done the sums on acceptances in section 3 right https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/publications/ugadmissionssstatistics20233cycle.pdf.

I'd call that a significant majority.

It's only the UG proportion which is relevant to the OP's DH's complaint, and his DS is unlikely to want to do a PG masters after an MEng.

@Weepixie - yes...I would think the students themselves who apply to the particularly competitive stem and economics degrees should be able to explain the statistics to their parents!

and those whose families can pay for them might be from the governing elite with dubious money

I think in the old days this could have been true but I would say if it happens today those students will be in the minority.

I would say the majority are on scholarships or funded by parents who both work in professional roles above a certain level and who make sacrifices to educate their children. And of course there are very wealthy people educating their children abroad but I would say very few parents are paying the bills without wincing.

It is often not just parents who are paying the bills, but extended family or sometimes a community. This puts an awful lot of pressure on some of the international students to succeed - and in turn on universities to pass them despite their inadequate English and it being clear they have not engaged with the course.