Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

[Berlinerschnauzer]

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point.
Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter.
Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis.
Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks
as per usual ?

690 students got all grade 9s in all subjects taken in ten or more subjects last year (though there was a significant drop in top grade from 2+ years ago when Covid marking was still influencing results)

4135 students took three A levels and achieved all A* (stats not present for four A levels)

Sorry yes of course the fees make a difference. I meant to write in terms of places offered as these are controlled - they cannot change the number of places offered to international students for medicine to increase fee income.

They DO make profit from overseas students, as they may do from other activities such as business spin-offs, consultancy, building lets, summer conferences…. That they have to use these profits to cover other loss making areas does not mean these sources of income are not profit-making even if overall the university is loss making.

I just looked up Oxford University income for last year. It seems publishing is one of their biggest sources of income, way above international student fees.

Surely the very definition of profit is that it is the difference between revenue and costs...

Businesses don’t just look at their final figures though, they break it down be sector/department/product/area. If international students didn’t make a profit they would stop having them or would charge them more. UK students are subsidised more by Oxford University Press than they are by international students.

They only care about the money coming in.

@Littoralzone but what point are you making? That the tuition fee income isn't necessary because it's less than the income from publishers?

That universities make a profit from international students, regardless of if they choose to use that profit to subsidise UK students.

The Times Higher Education Young University Rankings to which you linked lists the world's best universities that are "50 years old or younger" dated 2022. The most up-to-date list seems to show it as 15th overall in this listing in the UK.
This is not quite the same as being 4th in the UK out of all universities, as it includes only 58 newer UK institutions. It actually comes 46th when all 130 UK institutions are included.
Obviously there will always be people for whom it is the best choice for various reasons, but it does not bear comparison with the University of Oxford.

I am sure you know best.

It’s money money money

Kings College law faculty this past year is c90% international students - they pay the bills

OBU, like many ex-poly’s, are likely to have a few specialist courses that are high ranking. These normally reflect the previous role of polytechnics in teaching vocational courses that meet the technical needs of local employers. These courses are subjects very rarely taught at older universities which focus on academia and research like OXU.

No student would be tossing up whether to apply to OXU or OXB.

Money, and the fees are going up aren't they?

and as a result entrance criteria for those subjects has altered across all sites including Oxford Uni. Meaning those who would historically not have got into OXU now can (in certain subjects).

I'd be curious to see any evidence of Oxford uni offers being decreased (doesn't accord with anything I've seen) and for some Cambridge courses while they typically cite the lowest offer on their website (for the one the OPs DS applied to its two A stars and an A, specifically in physics, further maths and maths ... so quite unusual for anyone to actually get that rather than all a stars) , in practice for candidates applying with four a levels the offer will be on all four and they've been asking for more stars over the last few years not fewer.

All Oxbridge courses have more applicants than places, they filter out some before interview on the basis of entrance tests etc and then more by the interview. The idea they've become easier to get into is simply untrue.

But that's not because of international students taking a larger share of the available places.

@Littoralzone that's a moot point. They have no choice. If they could raise UK fees they would, but they can't. They're not making a strategic choice as to how they use the 'profit' they're making because it's not profit. It's revenue that they have to use to cover the bills.

UK fees are going up a tiny amount.
And it will pretty much be wiped out by NI increases.
It's not going to really make a difference to the finances of universities.

The OPs son roughly represents 1 out of every 1000 children who sat GCSEs at the same time as him.

Think about that: He's 1/1000 for achievement.

If we add up all the kids just like the OP's son, there are only 690 of them in the UK

690 flawless GCSE candidates and 6900 Oxbridge places (in 2024), so if all those kids apply (and assuming that everyone who gets an offer actually achieves the required grades) that's only a 1 out of 10 chance of getting in. so who are the other 9 places going to?

The OP's son has massively boosted his supra-curricular by coming second in the national engineering competition. He's also very unusual in that he's doing 4 A levels AND an EPQ. Expected to get 4 x A star in all of these two.

Who is actually better than this kid?

Cross subsidisation. The cost of a UK place has remained the same for years, while prices have soared. In Scotland, the block grant from the government for Scottish students has also fallen. The money to keep up buildings, pay staff, build halls of residence and provide the skilled mental health support that students now need as NHS waiting lists are so long, all needs to be paid for somehow!

I'm surprised that so many folks on here don't seem to realise how many UK unis are on the brink of bankruptcy, and have not thought about what that means when they are the biggest employer in their area (e.g. administrative staff, IT, catering, security, events and conferences, support provided for local startups and other businesses

money

Who is actually better than this kid?

He's got an incredibly impressive academic record. I'm sure he'll get offers from other very good courses.
But the Cambridge process isn't necessarily intended to rigorously sift on that basis. There seems to be a fair bit of luck involved with the interview stage.

They would if they were in line for oxb and the course criteria for musid at oxu changed. Hence what has happened.

To be clear the courses/departments I am referring to have also been cancelled at Cardiff as well as OBU. Music and Maths. I am not suggesting that the whole of academia will be going to Oxford Uni or that they have lowered their standards as a whole, except where there are less candidates for courses. However there is a low intake nationally in those subjects.

Google it..Cardiff and OBU are closing Music and Maths departments due to low uptake. Other Unis in the area are decreasing their entrance criteria to attract candidates for those courses.

Google it..Cardiff and OBU are closing Music and Maths departments due to low uptake. Other Unis in the area are decreasing their entrance criteria to attract candidates for those courses.

I don't know about music - that may well be a casualty of arts subjects being shamefully deprioritised in state schools in recent years. And perhaps realism about the difficulties getting jobs that pay?

Maths however is massively competitive at top unis, and I doubt the next tier down below the COWI group has too much of a problem recruiting either. A quick google shows Oxford uni has over 10 applicants per place for maths. And the entrance criteria for Cambridge maths are uniquely high... starry A levels but then the infamous STEP as well.