Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

[Berlinerschnauzer]

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point.
Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter.
Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis.
Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks
as per usual ?

It absolutely does rely on the international students. 7.5% of them are international, but medical degrees are particularly expensive to run (same max home fee of £9,500 / yr as all degrees) and international fees vary according to the course, and are much higher for medicine.
International students will pay more than five times as much for medicine at UCL, more than 8 times as much at Cambridge.
At Cambridge, therefore, 200 medical students pay fees of £1,757,500 (185 home students paying £9,500 each) and £1,245,000 (15 international students, will vary slightly according to the college).

Brookes is/was ranked 6, Oxford Uni is ranked 4. Brookes has just closed music and maths coirses due
to a decline in entrants for those subjects. The criteria on entry for those courses has changed slightly ar Ox
Uni meaning more
people have chosen the better "known"
option though there is a wider decline in those courses in general as Cardiff have done the same.

I work in a school of medicine, but okay

But what about all the international students who stay on and get jobs -that’s a job less for Brits - no one appears to record these numbers - once they have finished at uni they can stay on bring their families -that is costing the rest of us.

• I can promise you that like Cardiff m, parts of brookes are closed because of this. Oxford is not as prestigious as you think.*

Oxford the town isn't, The University of Oxford is world ranking. Brookes is a completely separate institution.

They stay on a post student work
visa for 1 year in the UK. After that international students cannot work here without sponsorship. Only occupations on the skills shortage list offer sponsorship.

I work in hospitality and we get many many international students who have come and studied Msc
in hospitality, worked for year here full time afterward but can only stay in the UK on sponsorship if a venue offers them a management role over £38k or slightly less if its a new entrant. Waiting staff for example are not on the list.

Its actually quite annoying. I have a really nice chap, he came here studied hard, got a masters in hospitality management at a top Uni. Works at a very well known 3 Michelin Star
restaurant as a Chef de Rang (waiter). His visa ends in April, the restaurant wont be able to
sponsor as they do not have a management role. So he has gained great experience but we wont be able to
use it here in the UK

Thanks for that info - I can see that would be difficult. I hadn’t realised it was only a one year visa.

It's undoubtedly easier to get a place on any particular course as an international student

Except if you bother to look at Cambridge admissions stats that doesn't appear to be true, @LondonLawyer

Data shows that very small numbers of students do this. The vast majority return home, if not immediately, then after they have worked for maybe two years.

I know, I live in Oxford. OBU in not OXU which you will think of as Jesus/Christchurch etc but..

From Brookes Website

"We are ranked 6th in the UK for teaching (Times Higher Education Young University Rankings 2022), and among the world elite in 19 individual subjects (QS, 2023). Oxford Brookes is one of the UK's top 50 institutions (Guardian League Tables 2022)."

This is entirely incorrect. If the government does anything to further reduce international student visas it will finish off many universities, resulting in less capacity across the country for domestic students.

Also it won't suddenly mean there is a surge in the number of UK students looking for places. Students with minimal A-levels or equivalent qualifications can pretty much always find a place at a university, just not the top tier ones. There aren't hundreds of students out there searching desperately for a university place. If what you mean is that there'll be more capacity at those top tier universities, well that's always going to be finite!

I don't know where you get the idea that Brookes is ranked 6 as a university? I've just done a quick check online: Complete University Guide, League Table 2025: Oxford Brookes 46th, University of Oxford 2nd. The 6th ranking is for teaching which has nothing to do with the prestige of the institution. They are simply not in the same class, Brookes is not even in the Russell Group. A young person who was considering the University of Oxford is very unlikely to consider Brookes.

It is about money, international students pay more, but I think it is also a question of prestige to be able to say that a university prestigious enough to attract the best students worldwide.

The UK also benefits from foreign students who can help boost research and innovation in science, medical research, AI or engineering.

The harsh truth OP is that if your son was an outstanding applicant he would have got in.

Blaming foreign students is really not the way to go and that is not a good example to give a young person.

It just teaches them a sense of entitlement and the idea that foreign students or/and immigrants can be blamed for everything...

My youngest son is currently in his 3rd year at Edinburgh Uni.
As a Scottish born citizen he pays no tuition fees. For Scottish Universities to be able to offer this to Scottish citizens, they rely on income generated by international students.
My son has a very diverse group of friends and a few are international students which I feel has given him the opportunity to meet people from other cultures & ethnicity backgrounds from countries he has not had the opportunity to visit yet.
My son worked very hard during covid and on his return to High school for 5th & 6th year.
He was in the top 1% for exam results in Scotland and yet he attended a High School which is within the bottom 10 of all High Schools in Scotland for exam results.
He was also offered a place at St Andrews but decided to go with Edinburgh as he commutes to Uni from home.
I would have been very disappointed for him if he had received no offers.
If your child has worked hard and met the entry requirements for his application could it be down to their personal statement on their application?. How does your child feel about not being offered a place at Cambridge?.

But what about all the international students who stay on and get jobs -that’s a job less for Brits - no one appears to record these numbers - once they have finished at uni they can stay on bring their families -that is costing the rest of us.

Not true.
An international student can apply for a Post Study Work Visa (now graduate visa) which allows them (and only them) to stay in the uk for 2 years to look for work.
After this they can only stay if they are employed and sponsored by an employer through the Skilled Worker Visa.
If they don't find work after the two years they must return home.

International students on undergraduate and post graduate taught programmes are not allowed to bring dependants anymore - this is party the reason international student numbers have declined! Some research degrees such as a PhD allow you to bring dependents but they're relatively small numbers.

Nope.
It's a myth that international students are taking the places of UK students. Even if they weren't considered as separate groups, at the moment there is room for everyone!

At my university an international applicant had to meet very strict criteria before their application even gets in front of an admissions tutor to be considered.

Some courses at some universities were set up primarily to attract international students and thereby fill the coffers of the university. International students often prefer subjects that are less prestigious in the UK (eg Business Management, International Relations) than in other countries. That said, there are some courses eg Economics at LSE where many UK students apply yet fail to gain places despite stellar results where displacement by international students, who pay higher fees, feels very real to UK 18 year olds.

But lots of young people can get these grades. That’s why Oxford and Cambridge do those long interviews where they ask strange questions and really test your critical/original thinking. It’s really the interview that’s going to decide if someone gets in. They recognise that A-levels can be about regurgitating information but at degree level they want the original thinkers.

10 x grade 9 and 4 A* is actually exceptional, even for Oxbridge

DD found that a lot of her Cambridge contemporaries achieved less than that. Loads of kids had grade 8s and very few had done four A levels, let alone got 4 A . Many of them only just got the AAA entry requirement.

I can see why the OP is feeling butt sore (but don't think it's the internationals' fault). A lot of the UK kids from private schools have been intensively coached to satisfy the tutorial requirement aspect of the interview.

The bold parts are meant to be stars!

I'm an admissions tutor at Oxford.

It's true that some of the poorer colleges are admitting more international students than in the past for fee income. But it's not as if Oxbridge colleges are trying to turn a quick profit on undergraduate education. Quite the opposite. Our core business is teaching undergraduates but we lose money on home students hand over first. Richer colleges subsidise home students from their endowments; poorer colleges have to find other means.

In reality, the admissions process is by design and in execution meritocratic. I don't think it's hard to imagine that some overseas students might massively outperform most UK applicants on a standardised test. After all, overseas is a big place.

No admitting tutor is thinking about how much the eight or so students they admit a year will or won't contribute to the UK economy. For a tutor in maths, the dream admit would be someone who is going to win a Fields Medal. At that point, the applicant could have a conviction for drink-driving, a 4 in English GCSE and an irritating personality: it would all be overlooked.

International Students can get a degree in UK far cheaper than USA or China. Compare costs of a 3 year degree at Cambridge/oxford/UCLImperial with cost of Harvard or Stamford, it’s waaaay cheaper to study in the UK.

When the cap on International students came off Universities really pushed Internationalism, over seas recruitment agents/events, overseas Campuses etc. it’s not a bad thing, Universities still need to deliver world class education to compete globally.

Its far better now than it used to be. International students pay market rate and (as people have said) subsidise UK students. Essentially, they arent competiting for the same places as UK students, they are a completely separate population.

It used to be a complete shitshow before Brexit though. Back then, EU students were allowed to take all the places from UK students, despite not paying market rate fees (they paid the same loss-making fees that UK students did). And EU students were eligible for student loans, etc. It created a ridiculous situatoin where many of the top universities were 50%+ Europeans on most courses, and British students were completely frozen out.

This has now been fixed, thankfully. EU students now have to pay market rate fees (which is why not many come any more), and international students make a profit for the university.

They're not making a profit though - they're subsidising home student fees. They're covering overheads!

I posted a link earlier which has OBU as 4th. Its still an attractive option to people albeit not Mag or CC.

My point is there are less people who want to take certain subjects at ALL Uni sites. The numbers for Music and Maths are down everywhere. OBU and Cardiff have closed departments (see bbc news) and as a result entrance criteria for those subjects has altered across all sites including Oxford Uni. Meaning those who would historically not have got into OXU now can (in certain subjects).