Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

[Berlinerschnauzer]

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point.
Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter.
Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis.
Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks
as per usual ?

Money for the uni - they are a business
For the student - if you are going to shell out a fortune on a UK degree, you'd want it to be a prestigious university - not somewhere that no one had heard of.

For oxbridge in particular it isn’t just grades that matter - good grades are baseline requirements for consideration, and honestly grades tell you a fraction of what you need to know about a student’s aptitude, potential and motivation.

other educational systems are less grade centric - it would be crazy in many countries to be admitted to higher education based on exams alone, so international students may find that aspect easier. I think UK oxbridge candidates do benefit from a bit of coaching around how to best present their experience and interest, and many schools with higher proportion of Oxbridge candidates (state and private) will offer that for applicants.

No the university pays

They need the money yes and they are subsidising yes. But the upshot - in the two non RG arts based departments I've seen - are one or two Uk students in classes which are nearly entirely Chinese! This is not saying they're not good students (some are some aren't) but they're not learning here and then feeding back into the uk creative economy, it's more like their gap year, or finishing school, a grand tour before returning home. A chance to get some skills and perfect English.
I don't know where the Uk postgraduate students are? Are there less of them? Are they distributed over more courses? I asked a friend who is an admissions tutor on one of these courses who said that uk students aren't applying,I'm not sure if it's course specific? or maybe uk postgraduate courses were ever thus.

I don't know where the Uk postgraduate students are? Are there less of them? Are they distributed over more courses?

Do you mean masters or PhD students?
The total numbers of both of these is far higher than it was in the past so maybe they're still there but among a lot of international students? Plus, as mentioned, a lot more doing integrated undergrad masters which are much more affordable for U.K. students.

In the UK there is a long tradition of entering the labour market after a 3-year undergraduate degree. People can attain the highest summits of prestigious careers with only a 3 year degree to their name. In the US labour market entry typically takes place after a 4 year undergraduate degree. In both the UK and the US, costs of education are by and large borne by families, whether through savings, income or debt.

In much of Europe, labour market entry for prestigious careers only takes places after 3 years of undergraduate plus 2 years of Master. The costs are usually borne by the public purse. European students can sometimes do a Masters at a UK university, return to their home country and directly enter the second year of a Masters degree in their home country and hey ho they end up with 2 Masters degrees from 2 countries and they are only really out of pocket for the UK Masters.

Dd doing her MA found the same. It was a Russell Group uni.

In the UK there is a long tradition of entering the labour market after a 3-year undergraduate degree. People can attain the highest summits of prestigious careers with only a 3 year degree to their name.

True, or 3yrs BSc plus 3 years PhD for research scientists... I don't think very many did masters and there weren't that many PhD students back in the day, you wouldn't do one without research council grant and/or industrial sponsorship.

Wow. Central Europe: 3 years bachelor + 2years masters + 4 years Phd.

You can't go for PhD without masters here and masters is 5-6 years (altogether) depending on the subject.

You can't go for PhD without masters here and masters is 5-6 years depending on the subject.

Afaik U.K. students now mostly have to have a masters before starting a PhD.
I finished writing up and did my viva after starting work at 25. DH managed to totally complete his within the three years of funding. May help explain why we had such good scientific research companies back then!

Sure, research scientists required PhD. But lots of careers (bankers, politicians etc) don't require further full time academic study and other lucrative careers (law, audit) require professional training rather than Masters degrees.

One of my relatives is going straight to PhD next year after a 3 year undergraduate science degree. She did do a prolonged internship between 2nd and 3rd year in a research lab.

My DC are at university (one arts one science) and say the same, the course is 80% Chinese and Indian (male) students and very few British students. It has hampered their ability to mix and make friends as well as form study/performance groups. My DC are really struggling to enjoy their courses and, while applying were looking at post graduate pathways, can't wait to leave and enter the workforce.

I suppose word gets around that it’s not necessary to speak English at UK universities and the university will pay for interpreters. This must be a plus for applicants from countries where English isn’t taught to a high standard.
Is it the same in American universities?

American universities won’t be as dependent on foreign students as they can charge homegrown students whatever they want. I am sure there are schools that will take literally anyone willing to pay, but the desirable US universities (not just Ivy League) will commonly limit the number of international students accepted for undergraduate programmes to ~10%. At an undergraduate level students would definitely need to demonstrate a high standard of English to be considered a candidate at top or even mid tier universities. I suspect the expectations are a bit looser at grad level, where a particularly strong maths or science candidate might get in with weaker toefl scores. Many schools offer esl support, but what I saw from a state school where a relative taught ESL this was more refining a reasonable standard of English than dealing with students unable to cope in class.

Regarding speaking English my dd has noted people translate the lectures into their 'native' language and very rarely mix with others on the course (russell group politics course/international relations)

Not much sharing of ideas unfortunately

@Labraradabrador thank you for answering my question. That’s very interesting.
It’s understandable that people stick together with others with the same language and culture - it’s human nature.
My ds did Spanish A level so his command of the language was ok, but as pp have pointed out, it’s one thing translating a passage from a work by Lorca, and quite another understanding and chattering away in fast spoken Spanish. Then went to work in a small South America where none of his coworkers spoke good English and his spoken Spanish got good quickly.
My daughter went to an international school in Madrid for a 6 month course and kicked around with English speaking students so she barely learned anything which was a waste.
Sorry, that’s a derail.

Integration is a really big challenge when it comes to international students.
Firstly they look to create a group with others from their home country and secondly they'll look to other international students because they know what it's like to study abroad.
You can understand why they do that.

I have a specific KPI related to integration and it's the one that causes me the biggest headache!

A previous poster said they wondered how some international students did so well in essays and dissertations when their spoken English was so poor - you only have to stroll around Bloomsbury near UCL to find out why. I have seen so many flyers for essay writing services.

Science and maths is quite different - has a language of its own which everyone has to learn.

I do wonder how UK universities charge £9.5k for a couple of seminars a week for short terms, some marking and a library ticket.

Essay writing and Chat GPT use are rife

Alongside 24/48 hr exams who knows who is writing the answers!

Quite depressing really

It certainly has opened my eyes (when looking for son and daughter) to the changes to education since I completed an MA in the '90s and it does not appear to be in a positive direction

The answer is in your question surely?

I do wonder how UK universities charge £9.5k for a couple of seminars a week for short terms, some marking and a library ticket.

🙄

They pay for:
Academic staff (students are taught by more than one)
Course administrators
Timetabling team
Academic skills
Careers and employability support
Disability and well being support
Placement teams
IT support
Library staff
Library books and licences
IT and software programmes
Catering
Cleaners
Estates
Energy bills

@Annoyeddd I certainly think far more exams in rooms rather than coursework would be a good thing - sorry that's a bit tough on those who 'don't do well in exams ' and those who are happy to cheat but sometimes life isn't fair !! The way it is now relative to cost unless you are going to be a medic, a lawyer ( if you can get a job) a top level scientist etc - it's not looking great value- back to fully paid for old style teacher training colleges and nursing school ( I did this many many years ago under project 2000) and we got a grant too wouldn't I think be a bad thing.

It's awful the trajectory its taken. University is all about the income, including research income, and little about the education. The very small handful of students who try and study in a genuine and old school manner are disadvantaged by those gaming the system and cheating. For cheating I call using interpreters, ChatGPT and essay writers all methods of cheating.

Absolutely this. Oxford and Cambridge are not making their admissions decisions based on fee income because they don’t need it. It is just incredibly difficult to get into them - they’re two of the best universities in the world, let alone the country, and have incredibly high global recognition. You don’t just compete against students from this country to get a place.

Universities that are lower down the league tables rely on international students to bolster their finances but this won’t be the case for Oxford and Cambridge.