Can we stop talking about men being trapped?

[ForRealCat]

Just from another few threads; we talk about women getting pregnant either intentionally, or accidently and carrying on against the mans wishes and how it "traps" the man. I can see how decades ago this may have been the case, women would get pregnant and any 'decent' man would be expected to step up and marry her. Thus securing a husband and a degree of financial security.

Nowadays I can see why a woman may get pregnant intentionally against her partners wishes, (maybe she wants more kids, feels like se is missing her chance etc), but can we stop talking about "trapping" a man. Very few men nowadays will wed a girl just because she is pregnant, and the financial support he is obliged to provide is to support the child and not the mother.

Very few women find themselves financially better off getting pregnant and claiming child maintenance. So AIBU to think the 'trapped' narrative has had its day.

You're not trapped in a romantic relationship but unless you forego all contact with the child, you're stuck in a co-parenting relationship for life.

Some women do say outright that they allowed a pregnancy to happen in the hope that it would move their relationship forward.

It’s a form of rape, and we should be talking about it much much more.

There's something to be said for waiting for marriage.

I think it's completely naive and inaccurate to pretend that some women don't get pregnant in an effort to force their partners to commit to them and to tie themselves to the man. You are right that men can technically just walk away but the reality is that decent proportion of men will feel some obligation to stick around and try to make the relationship work. There are threads on this all the time on MN and lots of people have friends who have openly admitted to doing this.

I agree that if a man has sex with a woman, believing her to be on the pill etc. then regardless of all the 'he should have used a condom', he has not given informed consent to the sex.

I'm not sure I'd describe the situation as a form of rape but it is a violation.

Feminist virtue signalling? Give me a break.

The fact is that women still have choices after an unplanned pregnancy has occured, men do not. It is a matter of biology and law.

Pregnancy is a potential consequence of sex. Unless you think women should be deprived of full bodily autonomy, if exercising that right inconveniences men, or you think men should not have to deal with the consequences of their actions there is no way to correct that imbalance so it makes sense for men to keep that in mind.

Sex is not like oxygen and it's not a human right either so we need to stop speaking about this as if men being responsible for the consequences of their actions are being victimised, they aren't.

I did have step sons and told them exactly this and after having one termination I made it clear to partners I would not have another. The number who would have had sex without a condom, if I hadn't insisted, even after they had been given that information, might surprise you. It informed me that men often think consequences won't happen to them but they still reserve the right to play the victim.

Well,yes. We regard stealthing as rape so why not a woman falsely claiming to be on the pill? And what about women stealing sperm from used condoms and using it to impregnate themselves. This is not common but it has happened occasionally. Should the man beheld legally or morally responsible for any ensuing pregnancy?

I agree with the sentiment, it's perhaps sex by deception but how do you prove it when the pill is not 100% effective.

Well,yes. We regard stealthing as rape so why not a woman falsely claiming to be on the pill?

Unless the man is being penetrated by a penis, it is not rape, nor should it be classified as such.

Should the man beheld legally or morally responsible for any ensuing pregnancy?

There is no right to consequence free sex. For anyone. It isn't about punishment, but until there is 100% certain contraception with no flaws, it's just the way it is.

It isn't the pregnancy he is responsible for, it is the child. He is responsible for the child because the child has a right to be supported by both parents and to not suffer a poorer quality of life on the basis of their conception. The child's actual rights should always trump his perceived right for consequence free sex.

If the choice is between "man has to pay maintenance" or "man doesn't have to pay maintenance and therefore the child loses out" I would have some sympathy if it was genuinely a case of deception/stolen sperm and he'd done everything else he could to prevent it, but that still doesn't change the fact there is a child and the child needs to be supported.

@FOJN ,

‘Feminist virtue signalling? Give me a break.
The fact is that women still have choices after an unplanned pregnancy has occured, men do not. It is a matter of biology and law.

Pregnancy is a potential consequence of sex. Unless you think women should be deprived of full bodily autonomy, if exercising that right inconveniences men, or you think men should not have to deal with the consequences of their actions there is no way to correct that imbalance so it makes sense for men to keep that in mind.

Sex is not like oxygen and it's not a human right either so we need to stop speaking about this as if men being responsible for the consequences of their actions are being victimised, they aren't.’

Firstly, you are somewhat arguing against a straw man as I stated explicitly that I am fully in favour of the laws as they stand.

But, talking about ethics, I can perfectly reasonably state that I think it is unethical to both agree to an abortion in the case of unplanned pregnancy and then for the woman to change her mind. That is my position and it in no way contradicts bodily autonomy.

As to the sex, I wonder how you would advise your uni or early 20s daughter if she told you that she had met a wonderful guy but he refused to have penetrative sex as ‘the risk of sex includes a child’? My honest guess is you would have a long chat about whether that is really what she wanted. I very much doubt you would say what a wonderful catch and hoe sex is not a human right.

Which is where I came to virtue signalling. I think what gets a massive thumbs up on this board doesn’t always align with posters’ genuine beliefs.

She's trapping him into paying 18 years of child support he wouldn't have paid for otherwise.

The difference is women are the ones who pregnancy actually impacts - so it’s different. Men KNOW they can’t make women have abortions so it just baffles me that they aren’t more invested in condom use when they declare so loudly that a baby would ruin their life

And why shouldn’t he?

You are 100% correct.
The only people who get trapped by pregnancy is women.
My ex agreed to pull out (had always worked previously as he refused condoms) but on one occasion he decided not to. It was a bank holiday weekend. I couldnt get the MAP until 2 days later. It didn't work.

My whole life changed. Gained a wonderful child but...
Career prospects gone for a while.
Reduced income.
I moved to his home town as I was renting and he had a mortgage.
I lost friends.
Lost my pension contributions.
Lost my once fit and healthy body.
Lost my pelvic floor.

The only people pregnancy traps is women.

One of the things I plan to tell my kids about sex and pregnancy from a woman's perspective is that you shouldn't ever promise someone that you will or won't continue a future pregnancy and you shouldn't take what the other person says as gospel even if they are sure about their position .

You just don't know how you'll feel and it is unethical to make someone believe that risk is covered. So, if you're determining the level of protection that you use based on the idea that you or the other person will (want to) terminate the pregnancy, rethink that. Even if you've spoken about it seriously. Their position may change when the risk becomes a reality. Your own position might change.

OK. Let's talk about it. What are the stats on this? How many men have requested can't iron guarantees there will be no pregnancy and consented to sex on that basis only, only to find the woman has deliberately 'made herself' conceive in order to keep the man? 'Some women' is a little vague. In order to decide if this is an issue of sufficient magnitude it needs to be talked about 'much much more' I'd like to understand the scale of the problem. So, how many?

Yes I’ve googled and can’t see any peer reviewed research around the matter.

I’d also love know how men know that their OHs poked holes in condoms.

I think what’s happening more is men are skipping out on their responsibilities - men owe their children £4billion in child maintenance in the U.K. and yet we have handmaidens crawling out the woodwork claiming a man who gets a woman pregnant (there is ALWAYS a chance when a man has sex with a woman, even if she’s on the pill and he’s had a vasectomy, and men KNOW this) has been raped. Pathetic

The corollary to the argument that guys should only have sex if they are prepared to become a father is if they then decide not to have penetrative sex?

How many would be happy with a partner who took this position, honestly?

The reality is that both sexes should think about what they want to do in the case of accidental pregnancy, communicate it and decide what to do accordingly.

And,in the rare cases where the woman changes her mind (and genuine mind changing is rare), the man should both agree to coparent and pay towards his child. It doesn’t mean he couldn’t feel aggrieved though.

Both sexes are capable of behaving both well and badly about this.

How many of you brought up pregnancy before having sex with a new man throughout your lives? Vanishingly few, I would imagine.

Not me - I'm more concerned about STIs at that point. Dating in the last few years (I am now 52) has been an eye-opener. I think only one man has raised the question of contraception. Not one has asked if I still have periods (you're meant to use contraception for at least a year after your last period,) though as they are now erratic, more than one has unfortunately experienced me having one unexpectedly. Only one has asked if I test for STIs (I do,) and 8 think only one expected to wear a condom without being asked. Most of them are happy to dive on in with no protection, no questions about STIs or contraception. They will talk about it if I raise it, and will reluctantly wear a condom if I absolutely insist - but I shouldn't have to. If I'm willing to sleep with one man I barely know, it's likely I have done so with others, and they should proactively protect themselves from the risk of being with me. But they don't care.

I assume that this sort of approach isn't limited to men of my generation (a generation that reached puberty during the AIDS epidemic of the '80s, where uni freshers fairs etc were awash with free condoms,) so I would infer that most men do not take responsibility for their own fertility or sexual health, so if anyone is found trapping, it's through their own stupidity.

I never said men shouldn't pay for the children they create. I said that they are being trapped financially, after being deliberately misled about how high the risk of pregnancy was when they agreed to sex.

Most men in a relationship would be happy to take the risk of sex on the pill with a 99% chance of protection. Most wouldn't if they knew that the risk of protection was actually zero, would they?

I assume that the posters desperately trying to pin blame on the men in this situation are of the revolting 'whoops, accidental baby' variety.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5244118-to-ask-if-you-know-anyone-personally-who-got-pregnant-by-lying-about-contraception

There are about fifty examples of women admitting to lying about contraception in order to conceive on this recent thread, if that helps.

Given the number of women who use MN and the numbers of women each of us must know, that's a pretty low number. The purpose of the thread was to invite people to share experience of this apparant issue of such great significance it needs much discourse. Yet only 50 takers came forward with their anecdotes.

No that’s 50 stories of other people that posters apparently know. Which TBH I would take with a huge pinch of salt

I think you are confused.

The facts are that pregnancy is a natural consequence of sex. Babies require resources and parenting. Anyone can have sex but you can't pretend that having to take responsibility for the consequences are unfair when there is a very obvious imbalance in who has the final say about the continuation of a pregnancy. The thread is about ending the argument that men are "trapped" by unplanned pregnancy. They are not "trapped", they are simply required to take responsibility for their actions.

If you have never been pregnant you cannot know how your views on abortion might change when you are pregnant. Part and parcel of being an adult is accepting that actions have consequences.

WRT to my hypothetical daughter, why on earth would I involve myself in her sex life? I would however tell her that she can end a relationship for any reason but she has no right to dictate the level of risk someone else should take wrt to reproductive choices. If a man decides to avoid penetrative sex because his risk threshold for unplanned pregnancy is zero then a partner can either accept that or move. Neither party are right or wrong in that situation. Navigating such dilemmas is just being an adult.

I'm pretty consistent in my beliefs about bodily autonomy, men have every right to exercise it too.

Don't have sex then.
Problem solved for women.