Page 11 | Parents need to stop lying about term time holidays

aspidernamedfluffy · 30/01/2025 10:32

Well it would help if all the LEA's had their half-terms at the same time. DD often missed the week before October half term as she was on holiday with her dad, SM and SSis which happened during THEIR school holiday.

FigAndOlive · 30/01/2025 10:34

What do you mean by holiday companies shouldn’t be allowed to hike prices? Surely that’s how economy works? Supply and demand, etc? What do you suggest, that the government forbids it and pays from the taxpayer pocket the difference on profit? Madness lol

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 30/01/2025 10:35

tissuepapers · 30/01/2025 10:18

The snobbery on threads like this is breathtaking. A child going AI to Lanzarote, which is a beautiful island by the way, is still experiencing an airport, a plane, a new country, culture, food and language etc.

I am in no way defending term time holidays but let's not pretend that mc families visiting Himalayan temples or whatever is ok but the above isn't.

Could not agree more

Pickled21 · 30/01/2025 10:35

You can see how polarising this is as a topic. I value education and mine has opened doors for me and given me opportunities my parents did not have.

We have not taken our children out of school for holidays. We are in Scotland also no fines here but there is an issue with attendance at our primary school in general and they are sharing children's attendance with us every term. If we can afford a holiday we go before the English schools break up in the Summer or October holidays. It's important that my kids know that school isn't optional and that education is important. That education will allow them to achieve their potential, to get careers where they can choose how to spend their own money.

SleeplessInWherever · 30/01/2025 10:35

TheWrongBus · 30/01/2025 10:15

Unless you develop a good work ethic and resilience (including an ability to get on with work even if you’d rather be doing something else) then you will always struggle to reach your potential, regardless of how smart you are.

But in answer to your question, my kids are academic high achievers (top 5%? of their year group. Eg DS has just passed the entrance exams for a highly selective secondary, and DD was chosen to represent the school in a maths competition). So there probably aren’t that many kids who are “smarter” than them and have worse absence rates, though their successes are a combination of working hard as well as their inherent ability.

It’s no coincidence that super high-performing schools like Queen Elizabeth’s Barnet have minuscule absence rates.

Show quote history

Congratulations on your intelligent kids, I guess?

As an ex-teacher, there’s sometimes more to life than school, and more to life than work!

FrustratedandBemused · 30/01/2025 10:36

MotionIntheOcean · 30/01/2025 10:28

Not really. We collectively fund state education, and it's clearly possible to run a viable system without it being underpinned by an assumption that parents need to be sanctioned if their kids are away for a bloc of 5 days. They seem to manage fine in Scotland and NI.

Show quote history

Yes, it’s interesting that Scotland and NI manage term time holidays without all this hand wringing. Maybe we could take some learnings from them?

DazzlingCuckoos · 30/01/2025 10:36

On holiday in the US we got chatting to an American family that we were on a tour with. They had two school age children with them.

We asked if it was the school holidays, as we thought we'd timed our trip to avoid them and they said no, it was term time. I then asked if they were allowed to take their kids out of school then and the mum said "Well, yes, of course, why wouldn't we be?" so I explained to them how it worked in the UK and how parents can be fined if they take the kids out in term time. The parents both sat there opened mouthed in shock that you could be fined for taking your own children on holiday!

I used to go on holiday once a year in term time (there was very good reason for this and it was the only time we could go). My DPs had the headteacher on side who authorised it when he was able to, but when the rules changed and he wasn't allowed to authorise it, basically just gave my mum a heads up about what the latest illness was that would keep me out of school for the week! If there were no communicable illnesses available, I think I used to get "tonsilitis" a fair amount!

I am a perfectly rounded person that has done well in my career despite missing these weeks of school. The only thing I can think it's affected is that I missed the week of German lessons where they taught the German words for stationery items. Still got an A at GCSE!

Personally, I think children should have a holiday "allowance" each year of one week. Parents sign something to say they accept responsibility for the impact it could potentially have on their child's learning and can get fined if they go over that allowance and teachers don't have to do anything in terms of catching the child up on what they "missed".

aspidernamedfluffy · 30/01/2025 10:37

To the parents who do take term time holidays: my kids won’t see yours for dust as they’ll have had maximum possible school attendance and will have achieved so much more of their potential (whatever that may be).

Mine ended up with a Bsc 1st class honours and a Master's degree. She's doing a job she's passionate about and is living a good life.

Travelodge · 30/01/2025 10:38

miniaturepixieonacid · 30/01/2025 10:30

Surely this isn't really something you would struggle to find an answer to? I rarely have a full class for a full lesson, there's always someone away or someone out of the classroom for some reason. Often several someones. Catch up is just a part of daily teaching routine.

Show quote history

Yes, but if it’s because of illness that’s unavoidable, and it’s usually only for a day or two. If every child in a class of 30 was off for a week or two, at differing times over the course of the year, an extra adult would be needed just to deal with the necessary catching-up.

MotionIntheOcean · 30/01/2025 10:38

Pickled21 · 30/01/2025 10:35

You can see how polarising this is as a topic. I value education and mine has opened doors for me and given me opportunities my parents did not have.

We have not taken our children out of school for holidays. We are in Scotland also no fines here but there is an issue with attendance at our primary school in general and they are sharing children's attendance with us every term. If we can afford a holiday we go before the English schools break up in the Summer or October holidays. It's important that my kids know that school isn't optional and that education is important. That education will allow them to achieve their potential, to get careers where they can choose how to spend their own money.

Respect for being upfront about the benefits to you from the English school holidays and fining system.

MayMumm · 30/01/2025 10:38

OnlyHerefortheBiscuits · 30/01/2025 08:22

It's time with family. It's childhood holidays, whether you think their choice of destination is tacky or not.

When ones parents are dead and gone you remember the childhood holidays with youthful able parents and those childhood holidays become more precious and valuable than ever.

What is life about? It is important.

You are being very unreasonable.

Agree

latetothefisting · 30/01/2025 10:38

Bubblesgun · 30/01/2025 08:10

You re right it wont wreck a child education if you re narrow minded enough to only think about your child.

if you do open your views then you ll see that a week away in term time is very disturbing for the class: the teacher has to recap what was done, if groups or pairs must be made one is away, when the teacher recaps the others wait, or if there is play then said child is away, etc.

i think term times holidays the most selfish biggest entitlement possible. “I owed a holiday”.

it is of course different if you re going to see family as there is an event outside of your control AND if you fully expect to be the one - not the teacher - to do the recap to your child.

yes before you ask. I pay holidays during holidays time and if i cant afford to go as to expensive then i find somewhere cheaper or i dont go at all.

simple.

Show quote history

if groups or pairs must be made one is away,

Oh come on, that is what you're using as a rationale? That's really scraping the bottom of the barrel. How many classes have an exactly divisible number of children in to start with? And even if there were, there are always children off, whether due to sickness, taking part in other activities, holidays, whatever. No classroom is going to be thrown into disruption with children unable to partner up or form groups because little Wilbur is in Tenerife.

or if there is play then said child is away,

even more desperate! I'm sure the child will be absolutely gutted to miss out on a few day's "play". They would absolutely prefer to be playing football in the rain rather than riding rollercoasters at Disneyland. I'm sure they'll learn and enjoy just as much (or more) playing in the sand on the beach with their parents in tenerife than taking their alloted ten minutes in the tiny sandpit filled with other kids' bogeys in school 🙄

Yes, the main responsibility for recapping should be on parents, but most teachers recap things repeatedly anyway, because, again, there is always at least one child off due to illness, but mainly because repetition is the best way of teaching! Very few kids (particularly younger ones) are going to pick things up straight away the first time they are introduced, it's not like they have one introductory hour on fractions and then the whole class understands it immediately.

Porcelainpig · 30/01/2025 10:38

I think it's easier to allocate time that parents can do it throughout a child's time at school so it is more organised. So you can take your children out of school for 6 weeks of their entire time at school and have things in place so they dont miss the key things they need to learn. At least then it can be controlled, managed and impacts mitigated. If everyone is so polarised about it then nothing changes. Story of this country isn't it?

I took two weeks out of school in the 90s without issue because it was a rare occurrence for us.

Holiday companies need to not rip people off. If it is more cost effective to get fined people will do it. It doesnt matter about social pressure, because money is the deciding factor here.

No point in being superior or judgemental about poorer families doing it. Try and solve the problem or find a compromise instead.

BarbaraHoward · 30/01/2025 10:38

aspidernamedfluffy · 30/01/2025 10:37

To the parents who do take term time holidays: my kids won’t see yours for dust as they’ll have had maximum possible school attendance and will have achieved so much more of their potential (whatever that may be).

Mine ended up with a Bsc 1st class honours and a Master's degree. She's doing a job she's passionate about and is living a good life.

I went on plenty of term time holidays and am now an academic - so I think we can safely say my education didn't suffer.

Unfortunately, two academic salaries don't really stretch to school holiday prices though.

MotionIntheOcean · 30/01/2025 10:39

FrustratedandBemused · 30/01/2025 10:36

Yes, it’s interesting that Scotland and NI manage term time holidays without all this hand wringing. Maybe we could take some learnings from them?

Show quote history

No no, surely they can't have functioning state education systems when they do things differently to England!

FrustratedandBemused · 30/01/2025 10:39

Pickled21 · 30/01/2025 10:35

You can see how polarising this is as a topic. I value education and mine has opened doors for me and given me opportunities my parents did not have.

We have not taken our children out of school for holidays. We are in Scotland also no fines here but there is an issue with attendance at our primary school in general and they are sharing children's attendance with us every term. If we can afford a holiday we go before the English schools break up in the Summer or October holidays. It's important that my kids know that school isn't optional and that education is important. That education will allow them to achieve their potential, to get careers where they can choose how to spend their own money.

Great that you get to benefit from the English fining system I guess!

Lyn348 · 30/01/2025 10:40

We never went abroad and never really went on holidays at all when I was a child, it's something I think I missed out hugely on. As an adult travel is more important to me than pretty much anything else. I think parents should be encouraged to take their kids on holiday every year tbh, if that means a beach holiday in school time because that's all they can afford then so be it.

Going to another country is an incredible experience for a child that has never been anywhere, it's a form of cultural capital IMO and that is important in life too. Not feeling like the person who has never been anywhere or experienced anything. It is also an amazing time to bond as a family, where your parents don't have to worry about work or life's stresses for a bit

Kids can catch up at school, just like they do if they've been off sick. Teachers don't spend hours catching them up IME, they just muddle in and teachers know the work will be recapped at some point in their future anyway. Teachers have far, far bigger issues in schools than this IMO.

Grammarnut · 30/01/2025 10:40

Ljcrow · 30/01/2025 08:00

If parents want to take their kids out of school for a term time holiday because it's cheaper, I wish they wouldn't give the bullshit that it's an "educational experience". There's an article about this on the BBC today, but working in a school I've heard it all before. Can we not pretend that an all-inclusive to Lanzarote or similar is a rich cultural and educational experience?! If you want to take your kids our because it's cheaper that's up to you but don't try claim the moral high ground, no one's falling for it. (Fwiw I think holiday companies shouldn't be allowed to hike their prices up in school holidays, it's disgraceful, and as a parent myself I have no choice but to pay those inflated prices. It sucks.)

How are you going to stop a capitalist system based on demand, hiking up prices when demand is highest? Doesn't work, and cannot be done (probably against World Bank rules, too).

TheWrongBus · 30/01/2025 10:40

MotionIntheOcean · 30/01/2025 10:20

Wasn't a question. Since I had a poor absence record and got into Oxford anyway, it's not something I'd need to ask. You really were asking for a succession of posters to come and tell you all about how smart they/their DC are without needing to be in every day!

And no, it's simply not the case that missing 5 days of school for a term time holiday means a person will always struggle to reach their potential, however smart they are. That's both copium and reach.

Show quote history

You might want to re-read my posts as you still seem to be missing the point of them.

I couldn’t care less if people want to argue that their kids are smart/do well at school despite a termtime two week jolly. Because I’m sure some of them are/do, but again, that wasn’t my point.

Though interestingly you now seem to be arguing that there is no correlation between attendance and school achievement. which is odd given the plethora of evidence that there is a very strong causal link.

It’s funny how the Oxford alumni are always the ones who feel they need to make you aware of it…

DowntonNabby · 30/01/2025 10:41

TheyAreNotAngelsTheyDontCareAtAll · 30/01/2025 08:23

The parents of the removed child think it's not going to affect anything.
Except it does. The child is playing catch-up (then usually gives up), and the other class mates are disrupted because the teacher is repeating stuff to catch up the absentee child.
Then multiply that by 4/5/6 kids and it's a mess. But each parent only sees this 'educational opp' in terms of their own world rather than the cumulative effect on the school.

Show quote history

I know a family that regularly pulls their primary age child out of school for trips abroad to visit relatives long-haul or long weekends in Europe. Child is now behind in core subjects and the parents' attitude is the school's teaching must be inadequate! They don't seem to appreciate that when you've got a class of 30 children, you cannot spend days catching up one child because they've spent the previous fortnight out of the classroom. So yes, they might slip behind.

But agree with PP that the real issue is the travel companies hiking up their costs in school holidays.

timetobegin · 30/01/2025 10:42

ruethewhirl · 30/01/2025 10:22

Well, lumping those types of holiday together isn't relevant to the point I was making. Those other types of holiday are more educational than beach holidays imo. To be clear, I'm not being snobby about beach holidays, I enjoy them myself. I just think it's harder for parents to make the 'it's educational' excuse if all they're going to do on the holiday is lie around while the kids paddle and make sandcastles. While that's certainly a fun holiday and it's just as important for kids to have fun as to learn, it's a reach imo to claim it's an educational holiday.

Show quote history

I wasn’t really saying anything about it being an “excuse”, I was saying it was great for expanding minds and learning, so IMO a good thing for children.

TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis · 30/01/2025 10:42

For those querying the educational nature of some things, it's also worth noting that there is such substantial deprivation in many areas that some children have never seen the seaside, let alone visited a foreign country.

If the only way a family can afford a holiday is to go in term time, that's better than a child being unable to take part in activities such as "describe a trip to the beach" because they've never done it.

aspidernamedfluffy · 30/01/2025 10:43

BarbaraHoward · 30/01/2025 10:38

I went on plenty of term time holidays and am now an academic - so I think we can safely say my education didn't suffer.

Unfortunately, two academic salaries don't really stretch to school holiday prices though.

Show quote history

Exactly. My sole wage couldn't get us more than a weeks camping at Camber Sands so I was not going to stop DD going to all the lovely places she went to with her dad and step family. Those holidays fuelled her love of travel and she's seen more of the world than I ever will.

MotionIntheOcean · 30/01/2025 10:44

TheWrongBus · 30/01/2025 10:40

You might want to re-read my posts as you still seem to be missing the point of them.

I couldn’t care less if people want to argue that their kids are smart/do well at school despite a termtime two week jolly. Because I’m sure some of them are/do, but again, that wasn’t my point.

Though interestingly you now seem to be arguing that there is no correlation between attendance and school achievement. which is odd given the plethora of evidence that there is a very strong causal link.

It’s funny how the Oxford alumni are always the ones who feel they need to make you aware of it…

Show quote history

Having read your posts is why I've noticed your goalpost move. There's a substantial difference between a broad correlation between problems and poor attendance for all kinds of reasons (not, correlation isn't causation) and a few days off for a term time holiday meaning potential can't be achieved. That was a dipshit claim you made. I don't know what possessed you.

Also, the time for a dig about Oxford grads was before you'd told everyone how clever your kids are and how much better they're going to do. You're just miffed nobody is impressed with your particular boast!

EmmaEmEmz · 30/01/2025 10:45

TheWrongBus · 30/01/2025 09:35

YANBU.

When take their kids out of school for holidays this is the message it sends to them:

school attendance isn’t important
what you do and don’t learn at school doesn’t matter
formal education generally isn’t that important
causing disruption to your fellow classmates and the teacher doesn’t matter - your enjoyment/convenience/budget is what counts
its fine to miss school if there is something more fun and interesting to do - a nice holiday, a family jolly, maybe just a day to the beach when the whether is nice? Or a duvet day with the iPad because you don’t fancy cross country in the rain?

There are 13 weeks a year of school holidays which is more than enough time for “cultural enrichment” (ha ha), seeing family and going on holiday. And if that means you can’t afford 10 days in an all-inclusive in Majorca then cut your cloth like the majority of people!

Is it any wonder that we have a persistent absence rate of over 20%?! That is not all accounted for by children who are ill or have genuine MH issues.

And this attitude will inevitably carry through to the workplace, if you don’t really need to turn up to school there’s something better then why go to work if you’re a bit hungover/feeling sad that you rowed with your girlfriend/would rather top up your tan in the park. So that bodes well for their future jobs/careers.

To the parents who do take term time holidays: my kids won’t see yours for dust as they’ll have had maximum possible school attendance and will have achieved so much more of their potential (whatever that may be).

They will also have developed resilience and a good work ethic and will have a world of opportunities open to them as a result. Just as I did as my parents (teacher and college principal) instilled in me the importance of education.

So best of luck to the kids of all of you who don’t care about education as they are really going to need it.

I highly value education. I used to be a teacher and now home educate one of my four children.

However, I'm not bringing them up to be people who put work and careers before everything else. It's important, of course it is, but happiness, a love of travel, knowing how to relax (I'm 40, and was a workaholic - now I don't know how to relax or look after my mental health because I thought my career was the be all end all - and that's caused me so many problems) and the importance of family and fun.

Not everyone wants to churn out little money making machines. I want to raise well rounded, happy children with memories of racing mum and dad in the pool on holiday, going on a plane to somewhere new and exciting and knowing that school is important, but so are other aspects of life.

And it's 'weather', not whether.