To believe that some people stay broke because they don’t want to make sacrifices?

[ForSharpBrickKoala]

It’s hard to save money but isn’t it true that a lot of people could improve their financial situation if they made different choices? AIBU to think it’s not always about the system?

I think that we also need to add time poverty and lack of facilities at home into the equation.

Someone might be buying a sandwich from Greggs everyday because they work 12 hour shifts and there isn't a supermarket on the way to work for them to buy the ingredients for a sandwich. They may be living in a shared house where they have nowhere to store the food or it often gets stolen by the other tenants. They might just be so worn down by the everyday drudgery and lack of holidays that they don't have any spare mental capacity on how to make things better.

I think some people do bring it on themselves. Flash car plus debt. Would never shop in pound shops or go on Ebay etc.

I think we agree to a point.

Scrimping together £1,400 in the bank could be the difference between being able to buy a cheap secondhand car and starting on a cycle of never being out of debt. If you can save a deposit to buy a house, even a small one, you're not at the mercy of a landlord (though you are prey to interest rate rises). If you can pay off that mortgage, you then have money free each month that's not going to a landlord or to service the debt.

Believe me, as someone who didn't go on holiday with my parents from age 9 till I'd left school (because my father was spiffing off whatever limited spare cash there was on fags and failed business schemes), being able to go on holiday does feel like a luxury. There are people who fritter money away and then plead poverty at every turn: I know, because I grew up with one.

I do know people who have inherited a lot of money. There's no point feeling bitter about it: they've been lucky down the generations. DH and I have been lucky too: our DC have benefitted and will benefit in ways we couldn't have dreamt of.

I can afford my home, just about. And all my other bills. But there's nothing left to save. When what you earn only just covers the essentials and you are already not spending on anything non-essential, you can't consume less.

Consuming less isn't the only way to save; another way is to earn more. Wages have not risen in line with everything else. You know this. If you want to have a hearty laugh at people who aren't as well off as you, can't you just do it in your head or something? Repeat it to yourself in the mirror of a morning, like an affirmation. "Cooking from scratch.... Coffee... Avocado toast. Cancel Netflix... Don't want to work... Immigrants!". Finish off with a reminder that you are simply morally superior to the poor because you work harder (or make better choices, or whatever). Seriously, believe whatever you need to in order to feel good about yourself; nobody cares. But if you think you're going to get anyone on here to agree with you, I think you'll be disappointed.

Please don’t project your own insecurities onto me - you know nothing about me.

Don’t blame others - take action and make changes , action has better chance of result.

• or just complain on MN if you would like to stay where you are.

I have no insecurities; I do not believe that people who earn more than me are superior to me because of it. You, meanwhile, clearly have a quite desperate need to believe that you are better than others if you have more money than them; you've been tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself (and the rest of us) of it for about six posts now.

I have taken plenty of action - applying and interviewing for jobs that pay more than mine. A lot of them. I cannot get one. And even if I did, there would be someone else leaving the job I was moving into, and a different someone else moving into mine, and getting paid the same.

I haven't blamed anyone for anything; you have been quite obsessively blaming the poor for their own poverty. And the government. Which has only been in power for a few months. And the coffee. And immigrants. But definitely also people who buy coffee. This is all about your emotions, and your insecurities.

She's the same one who repeatedly demanded to have the concept of an economic system explained to her. Don't get drawn in...

If you post saying that “regulations” will change the neo capitalist rent paying system to some better system … it’s only logical to expect that you will be asked to enlighten us by explaining at least one or two regulations.

Don’t get drawn in … pah, Don’t say regulation is required when u have no idea what you’re talking about.

But your examples (and all of the examples on the thread tbh) are just “poor” and “slightly less poor”

we’re in a state where poor people are seen as responsible for making themselves slightly less poor, and judged if they fail by other slightly less poor people.

It’s a slightly pathetic state of affairs in the face of the money that should be available for the earning but is being gate kept by the rich

Honestly, I think if you can afford to go on holiday abroad you are not 'poor' as i understand it. We went on holiday as a family nowhere, not even in the UK, not even for a weekend, for a decade. We managed a night in a B&B for my cousin's wedding. Even if my father hadn't (literally) burned off so much on cigarettes, that money would have gone first to building a buffer of savings, then to buying a car that was cheaper to run (we needed a car, because of where we lived and my father's insecure employment), then to repairs and maintenance.

As for the gatekeeping of money, yes, there are some obscenely rich people out there. There are also a lot of people who daren't give money to their DC or DGC to provide deposits or pay off mortgages in case they get nailed for deprivation of assets a few years down the line when they need care.

I agree that many don't want to experience short term pain for long term gain, I came across a few care assistants who dropped out of nursing to go back to been care assistants because they didn't want to give up their holidays and cars - this was 25 years ago, so bursaries and most students didn't have cars.

I 100% agree. In SOME cases not all.

My cousin - 3 months older than me, with 4 kids, was always pleading poverty, and moaning she couldn't afford to top up her electric and gas card, and was struggling to buy food some weeks, and our grandmother kept forking out money for her, a tenner here, twenty quid there. And our grandad gave her 2 daughters £200 each for a school trip, as my 'poor downtrodden poverty stricken cousin' could not afford to pay for them. My mum even asked me if I had any spare money for her, as I seemed financially comfortable. Me and DH were struggling, we just never complained about it, and never took handouts!

My 'poor, broke cousin' smoked 20-25 ciggies a day, went to the pub and the bingo both twice a week, went clubbing 2-3 times a month, (spending £50 each time,) had her hair highlighted at the hairdresser every 6-8 weeks, and had around a dozen tattoos. No wonder she couldn't afford her childrens school trips, or to top up the gas and electric and buy food. She had spent it all on ciggies, the pub and bingo, her hair blonding and new tattoos!

Yeah I WON'T give her any money mum thanks!

The thing with poverty is that it changes the way you think.

If you are really poor, you might not be able to save. At one stage in my life I couldn't even say yes to meeting a friend for a £1.20 coffee because I was so hard up. Life at that level of poverty is miserable, where every single penny is accounted for, every 2p price rise in food results in an hour agonising over a spreadsheet so you can recoup it elsewhere as 2p May as we'll be £200 if you don't have it. If that is your day-to-day existence (and it is an existence not a life) and you suddenly come into £20, you are not going to save it. Chances are it will probably go on paying an urgent bill or debt that's incurring horrendous interest, but if it doesn't it will go on a small treat, like a bottle of wine or a takeaway - anything that just for a couple of hours relieves your miserable, constant state of financial anxiety and doing without and makes you feel like a vaguely normal person again. Some people see that as frivolous but it's the only way of getting through life.

Then you have the next level up from that. Where maybe you can save - only a tiny amount but a little - maybe £30-50 a month. Adds up over the year, yes? Except it doesn't. A washing machine breakdown, kids needing new shoes sooner than expected, car failing its MOT. All of a sudden your savings are wiped out on staying afloat rather than getting ahead. And just as you're starting to get back on track, something else happens and so now you're in debt. And that has a habit of building. So here you are back in the first case scenario where trying to do the right thing doesn't get you anywhere so why not use the rare moment where you have some unexpected cash to do something nice for yourself?

The thing is, there is only so long most people can cope with this before it wears them down and they give up trying to carve out a better future and start living in the here and now. Sustained poverty, year after year, is fucking relentless on the psyche.

I know because I've been there and it damn near broke me. The thing is though I was lucky enough to have hope. I had a great education and knew my children would eventually start school. I knew I could get a better job. I just about managed to hang on in there until that time came and now I'm a high earner. But it was close. If you don't have that possibility the future just stretches out in front of you relentlessly, never showing any possibility of improving that's remotely realistic for your circumstances. You give up and take your pleasures where you can.

Poverty changes the way you think.

Yes, I do think it would be reasonable for you to stop being an internet troll who asks vaguely worded but inflammatory questions just to get a rise out of people.

Does that answer your question?

Same! Our brothers must be non- biological twins 😂🙄

Is this the avocado on toast arguement again. Also what system?

Yes, someone on a poor wage could save £1400 a year if they did not have Netflix, coffees out etc.

I needmy coffee out because it is part of me socialising. It is not about me being too lazy to make a drink at home.

Netflix starts at £5pm. How the fuck is that a "poor decision"?

My Mum was like this and would spend the money on her nails as it gave her some simple pleasure. She always had money issues because of that attitude. I would rather have saved the 500 pounds and used it to invest and grow the money. I have strong views on this as I hated growing up in a household with money issues due to frivolous spending. I think I may do boomer maths though.

At what vist does a sacrifice come? Dad works all hours under the sun so his family can have a good comfortable life? Does all that extra work for the promotion and gets it?
Misses out on all the family things, mum has to deal 100% with kids all the time as dad is working? (Or vice versa on roles).

Yes, money is good, but after a few years, they've probably drifted apart, reset each other a bit. I have seen it happen.

Money isn't everything. Some of the poorest people I know are some of the happiest.

Mo Money, Mo problems.

Yet, some of the unhappiest, most depressed people I know are poor. Being poor doesn't make you happy. You don't have to be rich to be happy, but you do have to be fairly solvent/have a good amount of surplus income at the end of the month... EG, be in a position where a £700 car repair bill - or a £900 vet bill wouldn't faze you much ...

Money doesn't necessarily always bring happiness, but the lack of it can often bring misery. Knowing you can't afford to pay the gas bill unless you use your credit card to pay it, and constantly living in your overdraft, and robbing Peter to pay Paul is no way to live. It's stressful and life limiting, and causes depression, and unhappiness, and big problems in relationships,

DH and I are the happiest and most comfortable we have been for many years, because our income is approximately 2-3 times our outgoings, we have a savings pot with a sum in the low-mid 5 figures, and we have no dependents. If we wanted to spend £4K on a cruise tomorrow, we could, and would still have plenty of money left.

15-20 years ago, we didn't have a pot to piss in and were always struggling to pay for the most basic shit. We dreaded the car MOT because we knew we'd have to pay for it with the credit card, because we NEVER had more than £55-£60 in our savings account. Our 2 children always needed money for something, and we always seemed to be forking out for something for them.

We have been so much happier, and healthier since being better off financially, and have NO DEBT. We look more fresh-faced/younger and less stressed too. I would never in a million years want to go back to living hand to mouth, not a pot to piss in, robbing Peter to pay Paul, £25,000 worth of debt, and fifty quid in our savings account!

I was just watching the news about 'bed poverty' for kids and teachers having a space for some kids to get some sleep during school hours as they are exhausted as they do not have access to a proper bed. I thought, how terrible. Then they showed a young couple whose child didn't have a safe cot to sleep in and how hard it was in their social housing which didn't include furnishings(!?) Then it transpired that they were due their second child any day now, even though the first hadn't even outgrown the cot (that they didn't have to sleep in) and how awful life was for them and nobody was helping them!! My sympathy then goes out the window. None of them were working full time and then they get pregnant when they can't afford first child. No, just no. I have a few friends who grew up in terrible poverty, mainly due to their parents refusal to work and they worked their arses off to make sure they didn't give that life to their kids. There is sympathy for people who are really struggling, I think quite often how hard it must be to be a single parent these days or even just single running a house, with only one wage. But 2 adults who won't work and want it all for free then keep breeding. Nope. Not our job to keep them. I'll happily help anyone else who needs it.

And yet those children will be ‘bed poor’ regardless of whether their parents are feckless or whether they are trying hard in minimum wage jobs but dogged by ill luck.

Yep completely agree with this. I grew up pretty poor but amazingly driven parents who ensured I went to uni (by sacrificing a lot themselves). I’m now well off but still will not get regular manicures (only for special occasions), get my hair colored twice a year (do roots at home with a box inbetween), drive an oldish car, rarely buy new clothes . I cannot waste money on stuff as that wasn’t how I was brought up . I however paid off my mortgage, kids do every activity under the sun (by choice) and we travel a lot. So much money seems to be wasted! The girl who did my nails for my birthday last month was saying her bought her 3 year old girl a moncler coat. I had to look it up- was £400. Was gobsmacked.

My kids clothes are from Tesco / Sainsburys. Eldest started into sports labels but knows he has to save pocket money or wait for Christmas / birthday for them.

Going back to the original question-

If we downsized our houses, sold our cars and got a bike and ate lentil stew at home alone every night, kept warm by farts alone and lived by candlelight then yeah we’d have more money.

But that sounds pretty shit.

Or maybe they stay broke because they can't afford anything to care sacrificing for.
A quarter of the population is in actual poverty.