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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask where is the outrage?

124 replies

Raspberryrippleflavour · 28/01/2025 21:54

Found this article on grooming gangs. I was certain there would be outrage on Mumsnet because of all the recent posts on grooming gangs so imagine my shock when there are no comments at all condemning the perpetrators in this shocking story. Could it be because they are white and some people are only interested in protecting children if the perpetrators are from an ethnic minority?

It was one of the top stories on the BBC too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3vpzvk139xo

Police mugshots of (clockwise, from the centre): Iain Owens, Elaine Lannery, Scott Forbes, Paul Brannan, Lesley Williams, Barry Watson and John Clark

Child sex abuse victims in Glasgow 'failed', says minister

The Scottish government insists it is working to ensure "nothing like this ever happens again" after abuse gang is jailed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3vpzvk139xo

OP posts:
SpilltheTea · 29/01/2025 08:47

Rotherham is back in the news because of the cover ups. Not sure why you're running straight to racism, but okay.
I think the vast majority of people are outraged at all cases similar to this and think the perpetrators should be booted off the face of the planet, no matter what their religion or race is.

Bunshaped · 29/01/2025 08:54

YABVU for using the abuse of children to score points. It's not a competition. Gross.

LittleBigHead · 29/01/2025 08:55

At the time of the exposure of grooming gangs the point was made over and over that the majority of abuse was perpetrated by white men.

Perhaps a lot of posters missed that?

JustAskingThisQ · 29/01/2025 08:58

SpilltheTea · 29/01/2025 08:47

Rotherham is back in the news because of the cover ups. Not sure why you're running straight to racism, but okay.
I think the vast majority of people are outraged at all cases similar to this and think the perpetrators should be booted off the face of the planet, no matter what their religion or race is.

I think the problem is that a lot of people want to separate the inhumanity of Asian grooming gangs from other types of mass grooming, like what occurs in the church. Instead of seeing it as say, a male issue (given that most of the offenders are male and gender would be a far more encompassing trait than race or religion), they want to see it as something the Others do. And even when "we" do it, it's different (read: less insideous).

Yes, people definitely ignored what was happening in Rotherham for socio-political reasons. They didn't want to be the racist one(s). However, people ignored what was happening in the church, and in the police, and in various institutions because they didn't want to be the ones to criticise tradition, too.

Instead of looking at what motivates humans to look the other way or even enable harm, it becomes this thing where we pretend what those men are doing is so foreign to us that we are outraged.

As women, we know this happens regardless of where you grew up. You have predatory men and an army of people who enable them for various reasons. Some of them are victims too.

askmenow · 29/01/2025 09:17

You keep throwing money at welfare and it makes people more dependant on the nanny State.
It’s not better welfare provision we need its local jobs and hope!

Training centres for the young in Trades skills, apprenticeships. Enterprise schemes, factories, production lines and regular wages is what’s needed.
Youth clubs, boxing clubs, chess clubs, coding clubs and upstanding male role models to instil pride and discipline.…..

Job Centres that are proactive, encouraging training, not just advising the minimum hours you should work so you can get into the benefits system.

There are some families whose whole lives revolve around what benefits they can accrue. Whose children are surrounded by the lack of aspiration.
They see no way out so children are easy prey for those filthy swine loitering at school gates plying presents and drugs and promise of a better life.
What we need is a Government that doesn’t talk down the country and gives people hope.

There is little pride in work these days. It’s easier to lie in bed rather that get up and out in the cold dark mornings to earn a living. And when you do earn a living things are so expensive which disincentivises more.

What we need is the personal allowance raised immediately from £12k to £20k and benefits gradually tapered down.

Let lower paid workers keep more of their wages and it will be worth going out to work.

askmenow · 29/01/2025 09:22

LittleBigHead · 29/01/2025 08:55

At the time of the exposure of grooming gangs the point was made over and over that the majority of abuse was perpetrated by white men.

Perhaps a lot of posters missed that?

……Because there are disproportionally more white men in our society.

In percentages per head of population, Pakistani/Bangladeshi Asian gang rapists outnumber white gang rapists.

Telepathickitty · 29/01/2025 09:32

You're not being unreasonable.

Someone I was close to (white woman) was murdered last year and even before any details of the perpetrator (her partner, it was DV) because he had been arrested but still not charged there were hundreds of comments on every story on every platform about how the police probably hadn't released his name because they'd be protecting him because of his ethnicity, that whoever it is should be "sent back home" - just hundreds of racist horrible comments.

It upset me that her murder was being hijacked to suit others' racist agenda. That was the hardest part in terms of the publicity tbh.

likeyoubut · 29/01/2025 09:36

OK, OP, there are four types of outrage relevant here:

  1. outrage that men can commit such barbarity on children
  2. Outrage that children are subject to racist/ religion sexual abuse ( because of, for example, being non-muslim)
  3. Outrage at a deliberate failure to act to protect children due to (i) due to fears of being called racists, and (ii) prejudice that children are complicit in their own abuse due to their class background or being 'problem children',
  4. Outrage that two and three led to the same pattern of abuse occurring across 50 areas of the UK, results in unknown numbers of child victims that could be easily be in the thousands.

So I think looking at all that reveals the utter baselessness of the accusation in your post.

Also , its frankly stupid to accuse people of not having a pre-existing outrage when your post is the first many people will have heard of a very new news story.

Your post is also stupid as literally no-one ever said child abuse by white people was not an issue. White people who abuse children get an awful lot of hate - You just need to think of the outrage directed at churches, Ian Huntley, Ian Brady and literally every other white abuser of children who has ever become known of.

Macrodatarefiner · 29/01/2025 09:38

Dankula did a video on this I believe, so not crickets from him. (Haven't actually watched it)

2boyzNosleep · 29/01/2025 09:45

@juggleit I dont think i wrote my last post very well. That's what I meant, half the reason it was covered up was they simply didn't care about the victims as they were deemed 'troubled' etc. The other reason was fear of being deemed racist. Rotherham is a whole separate issue for the above reasons.

However, as @Newhaven Pointed out in the above post, there are many people that stay spew the usual anti-muslim anti-immigration comments when its an asian or black person, but those same people stay silent when it's a white person commiting awful crimes.

ElatedShark · 29/01/2025 09:53

Agree with you OP

ElatedShark · 29/01/2025 09:53

No riots or "protests" about this will happen I bet

Bringmeahigherlove · 29/01/2025 09:55

There is outrage from people who are not riding the wave of populism. It doesn’t fit the populist agenda that grooming gangs are Muslim so they can conveniently put this to one side.

JessiesJ99 · 29/01/2025 10:24

askmenow · 29/01/2025 09:22

……Because there are disproportionally more white men in our society.

In percentages per head of population, Pakistani/Bangladeshi Asian gang rapists outnumber white gang rapists.

One more time for the people at the back!!

Why, why, why is this so difficult for people to understand??!!!!

More white men are perpetrators of sexual abuse.
More white men are millionaires.
More white men shoplift.
More white men drive Teslas.

We're a white majority country with 81.7% white people.

It's just too ridiculous 😂😂😂

Upstartled · 29/01/2025 11:27

ElatedShark · 29/01/2025 09:53

No riots or "protests" about this will happen I bet

What would people be protesting, do you know of a cascade of politically and culturally motivated failings in our safeguarding apparatus related to this particular case?

Could you tell me about them please @ElatedShark?

BigSilly · 29/01/2025 11:40

It's not getting as much attention because there isn't the racist element!
This gang weren't targeting girls of a different race to thrmselves, like the Asian gangs who only preyed on white girls.

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 29/01/2025 11:51

Scammersarescum · 28/01/2025 23:08

What's disgusting is your post @Raspberryrippleflavour

These paedophiles have horrifically raped and abused children. That should be the focus, the damage done to children. To their bodies, to their minds, to their futures. To children. Who were raped and defiled. Over and over.

Instead you have chosen to use those very children. You have used their suffering for your own political ends. To further your agenda that those concerned and frightened by both the actions of asian grooming gangs and the lack of action that authorities took because of the religion and ethnicity of those grooming gangs must be rascist.

Well they're not and they are right to be concerned about the industrial scale of the abuse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2kv2nvj1eo.amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-47388060.amp

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/24282896.25-men-jailed-346-years-abhorrent-sex-offences/

They're right to be concerned that there was a time when it was absolutely commonplace to see middle aged taxi drivers parked up outside of a school local to me, trying to coax young girls into their cabs. People like Ann Cryer tried to the lift the lid on this insidious abuse and point out that political correctness had gone too far when we couldn't tackle the rape of children because the perpetrators happened to be brown and Muslim. She was branded a racist by people like you. The rape of children continued because of people that would rather yell rascist than protect kids.

These links are just from the first page of Google if you put in bradford grooming gangs. Feel free to Google Rochdale grooming gangs, or Yorkshire groomjng gangs for a further plethora of results. The list goes on and on.

Just because you don't actually give a damn about these kids doesnt mean the people that do care hadn't seen this news from Scotland previously.. just because you weren't paying attention it doesn't mean others weren't.

Up you hop onto your moral high horse. You probably think because you vote Labour you're some sort of special moral arbiter, some social justicd warrior. Well you're not. You're pushing people with completely genuine concerns into the arms of the far right.

Shame on you for using those kids who have already been so hideously used. Shame on you for trying to silence those who are trying to discuss this incredibly serious issue. Shame on you for implying that women in Mumsnet are rascist for caring about children and the damage done to them.

Shame on you OP.

Now off you go back to Reddit or 4chan where you belong.

And finally to put the focus back where it should be, with the children who were victimised. Here's a link to a survivor story on the BBC

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-68300484.amp

Be warned its a tough read. This 12 year old was taken into rooms filled with 30 to 40 men who all abused her, but her story deserves to be heard despite the attempts of people like OP trying to bury this scandal for the second time.

Abusing children is a filthy crime. Allowing the abuse to continue when it’s uncovered, and failing to punish the abusers, is another crime, and it’s the one that triggers outrage beyond the usual anger people feel towards child abusers.

We know child abusers are the lowest of the low. We are shocked and enraged when we discover the people paid to protect us are allowing abuse to continue because they don’t want to offend the abusers.

JustAskingThisQ · 29/01/2025 12:35

askmenow · 29/01/2025 09:22

……Because there are disproportionally more white men in our society.

In percentages per head of population, Pakistani/Bangladeshi Asian gang rapists outnumber white gang rapists.

That's only if you limit the definition of "grooming gang" to the very specific MO of Rotherham type grooming gangs.

It would be like reserving murderer for people who attack and kill strangers, but calling someone who kills their spouse a "life taker". By that merit, we have far fewer "murderers" than we need to bother with and women are not being "murdered" by their partners in droves at all. Their life is just being taken. That's different.

millymoo1202 · 29/01/2025 12:41

It’s been all over the news up here in Scotland and it was on the national news the other night, quite a big report which I was surprised at as normally we don’t get a mention on national news!

2boyzNosleep · 29/01/2025 16:08

Gymnopedie · 29/01/2025 00:27

half the issue was also the fact that the authorities didn't care about the victims as they were 'trouble-makers', had difficult upbringings/backgrounds and the term child prostitution wasn't viewed as child abuse.

But wasn't that the authorities trying to blame the victims as part of their strategy to look the other way with their fingers in their ears because of the make up of the gangs who did it?

Not sure what's happening. Just came back.on mumsnet, my initial post hadn't gone on, wrote another one and they are both on. Ignore this one

Boomer55 · 29/01/2025 16:16

I used to work in Child Protection, at a local council, which was all about about child sexual abuse, every day.😔

Abusers come in all colours, creeds, ages and classes.🤷‍♀️

What was further disgusting was that so much was covered up, as in Rotherham, to avoid upsetting local communities.😡

Abusers should be exposed, whatever and whoever they are, regardless. 🤷‍♀️

I don’t think this story was widely reported in England 🙄

rickyrickygrimes · 29/01/2025 16:27

It doesn’t have to be one or the other. It’s possible to be outraged and disgusted by all of these cases - but it doesn’t mean they should be treated exactly the same, because they might not be.

The key question in both cases is: why?

Why did mostly Pakistani males engage in the widespread abuse of mostly young, white, vulnerable females? Was there a cultural or racial element to their choice of victims? Why did various authorities cover up the investigations or dismiss the evidence?

And why, in Glashow, have a group of frankly horrible-looking people manage to persuade or force so many children into a situation where they were able to abuse them so freely? How did they get access to babies, ffs? Where were the parents? What was the connection between the abusers and the abused?

All the outrage and hang ‘em high shouting will fall to get answers to the above - and it will keep happening.

JustAskingThisQ · 29/01/2025 16:40

"Why did mostly Pakistani males engage in the widespread abuse of mostly young, white, vulnerable females? Was there a cultural or racial element to their choice of victims?"

Okay but if we are going to have an honest conversation about these whys, I think we need to have it.

I'm a white woman who grew up in inner London. Diverse area, blah blah blah. I'd zay my school was about half white, and half non-white with Black African and Caribbean probably the next predominate ethnic groups. Things I noticed about white teens vs non-white teens that may go towards increasing their vulnerability to this type of grooming:

*White teens had far more freedom and were less obedient to any sort of discipline or enforcement. They were out further and later.

*White teens were more likely to come from homes where parents, smoke, drink or use recreational drugs (not always to the point of dysfunction). This meant they were likely to try these things earlier too and often misuse them.

*White teens were sexually active earlier and often with the knowledge and support of parents.

*Less likely to be from a religious family and more likely to have parents who aren't together any longer.

  • Generally given more money/presents/luxuries

*Fewer home responsibilities like chores or minding siblings.

The reality is that my Black friends weren't out late on Fridays and Saturdays drinking hooch in the park at 12 or 13. No fucking way. I was though and I wasn't even a vulnerable teen.

JessiesJ99 · 29/01/2025 17:39

JustAskingThisQ · 29/01/2025 16:40

"Why did mostly Pakistani males engage in the widespread abuse of mostly young, white, vulnerable females? Was there a cultural or racial element to their choice of victims?"

Okay but if we are going to have an honest conversation about these whys, I think we need to have it.

I'm a white woman who grew up in inner London. Diverse area, blah blah blah. I'd zay my school was about half white, and half non-white with Black African and Caribbean probably the next predominate ethnic groups. Things I noticed about white teens vs non-white teens that may go towards increasing their vulnerability to this type of grooming:

*White teens had far more freedom and were less obedient to any sort of discipline or enforcement. They were out further and later.

*White teens were more likely to come from homes where parents, smoke, drink or use recreational drugs (not always to the point of dysfunction). This meant they were likely to try these things earlier too and often misuse them.

*White teens were sexually active earlier and often with the knowledge and support of parents.

*Less likely to be from a religious family and more likely to have parents who aren't together any longer.

  • Generally given more money/presents/luxuries

*Fewer home responsibilities like chores or minding siblings.

The reality is that my Black friends weren't out late on Fridays and Saturdays drinking hooch in the park at 12 or 13. No fucking way. I was though and I wasn't even a vulnerable teen.

And those white girls were more vulnerable because of all those things. Especially the ones in children's homes.

I guess there was a general feeling amongst the perpetrators that no one cared for these girls, so they were easy targets.

We know the girls were particularly vulnerable.

But this doesn't help us to understand why mainly Pakistani Muslim men took advantage of them. Black, Christian men didn't.

JustAskingThisQ · 29/01/2025 17:53

JessiesJ99 · 29/01/2025 17:39

And those white girls were more vulnerable because of all those things. Especially the ones in children's homes.

I guess there was a general feeling amongst the perpetrators that no one cared for these girls, so they were easy targets.

We know the girls were particularly vulnerable.

But this doesn't help us to understand why mainly Pakistani Muslim men took advantage of them. Black, Christian men didn't.

But in my experience, they were taken advantage of where I lived by older men from all communities and walks of life. I know some things that happened to some people, but looking back I dread to think about the things I don't know.

Things that stick out to me are a girl in my year who was sleeping with this guy in his 30s and getting him coke from dealers around her estate. The guy was like a banker type or something. He would drop her places sometimes. She was in foster care.

A girl that got in with some much older "yardies". She had a baby for a guy who was at least 20 years older than her when she was 17 or 18. The adults she associated with all knew she was in school but allowed her to spend time with them as a peer and presumably at times, a sexual partner.

Numerous 15-16 year olds who were regularly socialising and drinking and doing drugs with adults. Sometimes their parents. Going to Glastonbury and places like that and having sexual encounters with older guys.

This was all commonplace with the white girls of all classes and backgrounds in my school. Who and how it occurred with older men, the other people normalising it, and those failing to protect them might differ. The grooming element where they're made to feel that this is appropriate interactions for children, and especially with adults, is consistent, though.

Predators seek out vulnerable prey. That's another thing that is consistent.