To think that wolf whistling wasn't such a bad thing?

[NovemberMorn]

Joanna Lumley has just given an interview in which she says..."I never minded wolf whistling, I always thought it was tremendous".

She also said... "I think we were a little bit tougher then. Somebody put their hand on your leg, you didn’t feel affronted and report it. You’d give them a slap.”

Do you think she is right?

No, I don’t think she’s right. She is a confident woman who could deal with it in her own way. Not everyone is, and they shouldn’t have to be.

I'm with Joanna Lumley.
My friends and myself used to argue who was getting the whistle. We were all born in the 50s.
Harmless fun .
No one touched us.. it was just walking past building sites / factories etc

This really does make me think less of her. That such a successful woman is bouyed by pathetic attention from random no-marks. Have some fucking self-esteem!

I was the 90s really but that was bad enough.

I vividly remember how awful a lot of men were. Thankfully, like with racism and ableism, the majority of us are more educated now.

I think its fair to say there are certain triggers that these types of men respond to like pavlovian dogs. These typically include school uniforms, work out gear, summer clothes and certain body shapes, hair colours and styles. I think its reasonable to say that a woman is more likely to be noticed by them dressed up in her going out clothes than she is wrapped up in an anorak. Just as she's more likely to be noticed by non predatory men and other women, because she's more visible dressed up than not. But, so what? The fact that these men behave inappropriately in response to some stimulus and not others is irrelevant to whether they should be doing it or not.

Were you children at the time, like many on this thread have said they were when they were first wolf whistled? Any thoughts on when it's directed at children? Still harmless if the recipient is 12? 14? 16? Where is the cut off that makes it harmless fun?

It's not about whether some women liked it or not. It's the fact that it didn't make a damn difference what we thought about it. It's the fact that our preferences in the matter were so utterly irrelevant

This. So cogently expressed.

It is so disappointing and I think far less of her myself now too.

One thing if she was claiming she herself enjoys creepy predatory weirdos making noises at her - bizarre and sad, but each to their own - but to try to pretend she believes most women felt the same is gross.

I remember how horrified my mother was at such behaviour, and she was born in the 50s, my gran too found it utterly disgusting. I never knew anyone who was fine with it, but I suppose there must have been a few.

The reality is that plenty of women always absolutely loathed creepy greasy men harassin them, but there are always women who will do anything to get a pat on the head from a man, and that includes pretending they don't know how distressing many women throughout history have always found this sort of creepy behaviour.

What proportion of incidents in the ‘good old days’ of men harassing women with unwanted touching does JL think were followed by the woman actually slapping the man and the man backing down? A pretty small minority I reckon. Women would be aware of the threat that he would hit back (if a stranger in a public place), get them sacked (in the workplace) and a lot of the time ‘handling themselves’ just meant gritting their teeth and enduring it.

Yep, her comments have a real luxury belief feel about them, as well as a must please the men folk and not make a fuss vibe.

I think there's a lot of romanticising going on. Women who think like Lumley, in their minds eye sashaying down the street like Jessica Rabbit leaving a trail of slack jawed (hot) builders falling off their ladders because they can't take their eyes off them. Then if a man goes too far, they're all Mae West, tough and wise cracking, putting them in their place to a round of applause and respect from all on lookers. They're tropes we are all familiar with, and with the right tint of rose on the glasses the every day inappropriate behaviour of unpleasant men can be elevated to support the fantasy.

I mean... what is she supposed to say? If she didn't find it threatening or awkward is she meant to lie?

And back on the good old days of blatant misogyny, if a woman dared to bite back after being groped or harassed then invariably she was the one who was thrown out of the bar/club or given abuse in the street

I’ve rarely seen a reply on MN that’s so completely and depressingly missed the point. To read that post and not think “how awful that male violence and aggression means young girls need to live like that” and instead think “see, male behaviour isn’t that bad a problem, girls and women can deal with it by restricting themselves and keeping up constant vigilance so that it’s not them who gets raped” [at least on this occasion, just another poor girl who was unlucky, fingers crossed it’s not them next time and then it will be their fault for not ‘handling themselves’]

I guess it depends whether a man who'd wolf whistle at a woman or put a hand on her thigh, would be as likely to Wolf whistle at, or grab the thigh of, a man.

What do we think?

I am imagining.

Harold gropes Maggie under the table. No one but Maggie sees/feels it, so she removes his hand and loudly threatens "I'll break his fingers if you grope me again". Cue laughter to the point of stitches and lots of moving on!! hahahaha!!!! hohoho.....silent pause... "so, who's having the vol au vent"?

I'm invested now, I need to know how that panned out for the rest of the evening and beyond. Did he just get an endearing nick name like Handsy Harry or something? The good ole days!

I think your description is hilarious 🤣

I think Lumley's mad. When I was a teen schoolgirl and then a young adult, and I'd get wolfwhistled, without exception I felt singled out, embarrassed, and somewhat threatened. One young female and multiple builders - horrible dynamic. I knew they were looking at me as nothing but a sex object and it was a horrible feeling. At university some builders were doing work where I lived and they would wolfwhistle and jeer at female students - only the ones walking alone, mind you - and it made me angry because they were in MY place of work and residence, and I couldn't avoid them while going about my business on campus, so I yelled and swore back at them. There was nothing kindly meant about those jeers and whistles. They responded to my anger in kind. I think they got a talking-to in the end.

It has never once been a positive experience for me to be jeered at as a sex object, and I'm so glad it's frowned on these days.

Me too. Brilliant post.

No. Sexual violence is on a spectrum of behaviours which are about power and control and entitlement to womens bodies. It's not just that wolf whistling is inappropriate ( I felt embarrassed and nervous when it happened to me) it's about how behaviours escalate and reinforce and entitled mindset in relation to women's bodies. And condoning it encourages a continuation of the attitudes and for certain men a development of the behaviours into more harmful ones.

She could consider the impact of what she said on her sex class.

And I'm sure women back then were equally as bad as some of the men, its terrible that you encountered all these dreadful people back in the 90s walking around shouting abuse, and making racist remarks, and just being generally awful, it sounds like the decade was complete hell for you, and theres me thinking the 80/90s was a great time to be growing up as a woman, barr the odd wolf whistle...

And just a few more thoughts on this. I used to get men beeping their horns and shouting at me when I walked home from school in my school uniform. It started at age 10. That's a type of wolf whistling isn't it? Is that ok? When would it be ok for men to do that to me? And in terms of slapping men after a grope, I'd be afraid of physical violence in response.

Ah yes , the car honking. Just harmless fun too, isn't it?

Until a car, or two or 7 actually stop, or cut into your path and the men try to strike a conversation. Soooo fun!!!

Same with the wolf whistling, some stopped there, some didn't. Some were a one off, some were regular harassment on a daily basis to the point some women/girls changed their route to school/work /home.

What really boggles my mind is how convinced so many posters are that complete strangers can't possibly have been dangerous. How the hell do they know if they ever went too far? Or abused their wife/girlfriend? Or raped someone? Just because their attention gave them a giggle and a boost ?

It doesn't just stop at the act being harmless (which I could accept as a personal experience, lucky them), but the men apparently are/were also harmless by association.

No. Sexual abuse/violence has always been a gendered crime. Men make up the vast majority of perpetrators. Women the victims.

Your tone is coming across as sarcastic. I'm sure it's unintentional as no one would deliberately minimise racism or abuse of women 30 plus years ago.

It would be exceptionally inappropriate on Holocaust Memorial Day.