to think I can't afford to have children?

[HildegardVonBingham]

Hi all,

I will try and keep this short. This is as much a social mobility q as anything else, really.

My partner and I live in London in a rented flat. She works in the public sector and I am a trainee solicitor. I am 30, I used to work in FS.

I'm at a mid-tier firm, and don't intend to qualify into a corporate seat. But if I qualify as planned - into private client or something a bit less gruelling - I should still earn what would be a good salary anywhere else in the country - c.£70-80k. Today I sat down and did the maths on how much it would cost me and my partner to buy a two-bedroom flat, as we'd like to try and have a baby a couple of years after I qualify (this isn't factoring in the cost of IVF, sperm donor etc... we have loads of gay male friends...)

Neither of us have family money behind us, and it would cost us c.£2k per month to buy a two bedroom flat on c.90% LTV. It seems manageable on paper. I then looked at nursery fees in London (c.£1600 per month), how much tax I'd be paying, the fact that you're basically ineligible for any kind of state child support at past c.£60k. I thought about the fact that I work loads now and that if we wanted more money I'd have to try and move somewhere where I'd have to work literally every hour god sends, which sort of defeats the point of having a partner and child. With a mortgage and childcare we would be 'on' c.£700 per month less than we are now, even with my benchmark post-qual salary. This would not be manageable as I find things quite tight as is.

I'm not asking for sympathy because I know I'm lucky but however I try and square it, it's not feasible for two young professionals in London to buy a flat and have one child without either family money or one partner on a monster salary. For a monster salary, you have to work monster hours - and so then you don't see your family.

Again, I know I'm lucky, but the whole thing makes me feel a bit despondent. My mum had to work two jobs when I was small, and we always worried about money. My dad lost all his money getting divorced twice. I really want to be able to have just one child but increasingly I think I would rather have none at all than have one and bring them up in financial precarity / insecure housing. I know some people would say that we should leave London, but all our friends are here and we both love it.

AIBU to worry that I can't afford to have kids? Putting hard hat on as have seen that some threads like this don't go down well.

Do you think the child would be happy you brought them into the world/this life?

That would be my primary consideration.

Children who grow up to be involved in knife crime, yeah. 😅

How do you think everyone manages? We live in the south west and are both nurses. We have 2 children and are comfortable- not rich but not struggling. Think of all the jobs out there.

If you choose that you'd prefer not to have children as you like your lifestyle that's fine- but you could afford them if you wished.

If you really enjoy your morning coffee (as I do), keep having your morning coffee. It won’t be the make or break of your finances.

We were in almost exactly your position. We bought a 2 bed flat in West London. Both professionals on a similar equivalent salary. Probably less but it was a few years ago. We stayed in London for 20years in the end.

When our child was born I was confused as to how people could manage (we definitely hadn’t thought about it in advance like you have!!). Somehow we muddled through. Lots of tube dashes and running to collect on time. I couldn’t stop work, as I saw others do.

You can do it, and London is an amazing place to bring up children.

I live in Hertfordshire, zone 7, nice area with great schools. You could get a 2 bed flat here for £350k or a 2 bed house for £450k. Commute costs £12 a day and I can get to central or east London in just under an hour door to door.

@BOREDOMBOREDOM people definitely fib, when you look at income statistics MNs is often very disproportionate but I do think people underestimate the BOMAD. Many older people have made a fortune in property either through their own or inherited from their parents & this is often passed straight to dc.

www.bigissue.com/news/housing/homeownership-bank-of-mum-and-dad-inheritocracy/#:~:text=“Homeownership%20is%20now%20a%20hereditary,mortgage%20lender%20in%20the%20UK.

I live in the suburbs of London - stunning green area, great schools, great for DC. Train is 30mins to my job and quicker commute than when I lived central.

We also have a childminder, and you get 15 free hours from the child being 9 months (also tax free childcare takes £166 a month off your childcare bill) - so full time childcare works out around £600-800 a month for one DC. Childminders are cheaper than nurseries.

You are entitled to 15-30 free hours and tax-free childcare provided one partner doesn't earn more than £100k. You can both earn £99k each and still claim. If you go over £100k you can put up to £60k into your pension and still qualify for this help with childcare.

And FINALLY FT childcare costs are only until child goes to school, so very short term. It's not a cost forever.

So based on all that I think you can afford kids, but you'd need to probs move out and look at less expensive childcare options.

PS - just seen your note about train/commuting costs. My commuting costs are the same - about £10 a day - as when I got the tube living more central. We live right on the outskirts of greater London

Not really but that wasn’t the OP question and I do think they can afford children, millions of us do, they just need to make choices like the rest of us.

Thank you @Deetelves that is great to hear that you managed to conceive so cheaply! How wonderful to have two lovely children!

I've lived in London - the prices are stupid! Have a look at Scotland. You can live just outside of Edinburgh in one of the satellite towns, and commute in, in less than half an hour. For £2k pm you'd get a 5 bed house and garden. Well, you wouldn't need to spend £2k, you'd get a lovely house for way less. Have a look at Dunfermline, Dalgety Bay, North Queensferry. Honestly you'd be so much better off! We have fantastic schools and nurseries.

Thank you @Wemaybebetterstrangers that's all really good to hear! I agree that London seems a brilliant place to bring up children - I babysat whilst doing the GDL and a few of my older friends have kids. It seems a lot less lonely having children in a city than in a small town / village as there are beautiful parks, lots of free museums, and literally thousands of people in exactly the same position of you who likely live near by... very glad to hear it all worked out for you and your partner

Thank you @CurrentHun (excellent user name) that is all very nice of you to say!

I am currently parenting in London. We are 31, have 1 baby and another on the way! I work 25 hours per week and make about 2300 (NHS) and my husband works FT (3000). We also receive 100 child benefit. Our mortgage is 1600, and in total all bills are 2400 (our dog costs a lot lol). In September our daughter will receive 30 hours funding and goes to a term time only childminder so our childcare will be free. During holidays we will split annual leave, and then our parents will hopefully be able to do a few weeks of childcare each (my mum visiting from abroad). Very doable! However, a nursery would be over 500 pounds so that would be different and a luxury we can’t quite afford as I’m about to go on maternity leave again! I think you can do it, we can afford things that matter to us like eating out sometimes, traveling abroad to visit my family. However, we are not in central London so that may be more expensive!

Would moving out of London be so bad though? Lots of commuter towns on tube lines ,so you could see your friends on WE. Alternatively if you bought a flat there(London) in a slightly cheaper area ,and maybe took in a lodger or Student short term would that work?There s always a trade off really.COL is high now ,My DC are older but we still take a picnic when out, or bring a flask .London is so expensive now ,but there are beautiful parks ,free museums and markets to explore

Doesn’t have to be a ‘small’ town - you could move to Brighton or south where there are 100s of LGBTQ + families…

Seconding this,Brighton can be quite pricey but there's tons of smaller towns close to Brighton that are affordable and remember it's one train ride from London Victoria if you want to see your friends

@SunnyCrab did you buy recently with a small deposit?

It's short term.
Year 1 minimal childcare costs as you at on mat leave.
Year 2 expensive
Year 3 expensive but funding increases

Year 4 school.
Older kids also cost a chunk, but you'll have no social life by then 😁

I absolutely agree. It's really unfair, especially when single parents seem to knock kids out and not worry about picking up the tab. I know my response seems harsh but unfortunately it's true

i know the scheme has changed but when my dc were younger & we got the 30 hours for a bit it was never actually completely free. At the childminder I had to pay top ups and 50 wks of the year to hold the place. At school nursery I had to pay lunchtime & food plus wraparound care on the days I worked as I could not use pre 9 or post 3 even if I didn't use the full 30 hrs.

We have young kids in London and it's a fantastic place to raise them. We are out every weekend going to different places - Young V&A, Discover, Science Museum, Southbank Centre, the royal parks, immersive experiences, Tate Modern - loads to do all the time and there are all the community resources like stay and plays and extracurriculars too.

We're in a higher income bracket and in zone 2, but honestly there are still plenty of very ordinary middle-income families living here, attending the local schools and going to the toddler groups. I don't know the details of their finances but some of them send their kids to nurseries bases in the children's centres (fees are based on income) and many of them live on the nearby estates (either as council tenants or having bought an ex-council flat). I think you have to tap into the local resources, be a bit savvy and be open minded about where to live.

I agree op. I was a single parent in London on a six figure salary (then renting a house) and I worked out my family member (also a single parent) on benefits was better off.

London is really tough if you earn reasonably but not astronomically and don't have a wealthy family to give you a leg up. You're not entitled to help but costs take your whole after tax salary

I was insistent on a really safe area, as my Dd was physically attacked several times where we lived before (collected her
from primary school in year 2 with her shirt soaked all down the front with her blood after one attack), so I nearly killed myself financially to get us to somewhere better. Things I didn’t mind when it was just me, became of massive importance once I had a child.

This sound horrific! I'm sorry to hear it. The part of Archway I lived in seemed quite safe. But I have definitely lived in some questionable parts of London (and some of them have since become very desirable and out of reach).

Thank you, it was. It still makes me go cold all over thinking about it. Yet when I was in my early 20s I happily lived in dodgy flat shares in even dodgier parts of London (one was just off Atlantic Road in Brixton before it got fancy, when it was still known as ‘murder mile’) and I just loved the buzziness of it all! I still love London, just different parts these days, the ones I used to consider ‘dull’ and ‘suburban’!