to think I can't afford to have children?

[HildegardVonBingham]

Hi all,

I will try and keep this short. This is as much a social mobility q as anything else, really.

My partner and I live in London in a rented flat. She works in the public sector and I am a trainee solicitor. I am 30, I used to work in FS.

I'm at a mid-tier firm, and don't intend to qualify into a corporate seat. But if I qualify as planned - into private client or something a bit less gruelling - I should still earn what would be a good salary anywhere else in the country - c.£70-80k. Today I sat down and did the maths on how much it would cost me and my partner to buy a two-bedroom flat, as we'd like to try and have a baby a couple of years after I qualify (this isn't factoring in the cost of IVF, sperm donor etc... we have loads of gay male friends...)

Neither of us have family money behind us, and it would cost us c.£2k per month to buy a two bedroom flat on c.90% LTV. It seems manageable on paper. I then looked at nursery fees in London (c.£1600 per month), how much tax I'd be paying, the fact that you're basically ineligible for any kind of state child support at past c.£60k. I thought about the fact that I work loads now and that if we wanted more money I'd have to try and move somewhere where I'd have to work literally every hour god sends, which sort of defeats the point of having a partner and child. With a mortgage and childcare we would be 'on' c.£700 per month less than we are now, even with my benchmark post-qual salary. This would not be manageable as I find things quite tight as is.

I'm not asking for sympathy because I know I'm lucky but however I try and square it, it's not feasible for two young professionals in London to buy a flat and have one child without either family money or one partner on a monster salary. For a monster salary, you have to work monster hours - and so then you don't see your family.

Again, I know I'm lucky, but the whole thing makes me feel a bit despondent. My mum had to work two jobs when I was small, and we always worried about money. My dad lost all his money getting divorced twice. I really want to be able to have just one child but increasingly I think I would rather have none at all than have one and bring them up in financial precarity / insecure housing. I know some people would say that we should leave London, but all our friends are here and we both love it.

AIBU to worry that I can't afford to have kids? Putting hard hat on as have seen that some threads like this don't go down well.

You can afford to have kids just not living in London - not many can! Move to the suburbs. Also on £70k you get about £1k per year in child benefit.

It can be done OP.

Chose a less salubrious place to live, reduce your expectations, cook from scratch, scrap takeaways, holidays and take out coffee. Cancel the gym membership, downgrade the car if you have one.

Like so many others have done......

It’s not easy, but you’ll have to bite down on the idea of moving out of London … could you work from home 4 days a week?

We saved so hard for our first child. And I used up all my savings whilst on maternity leave. I took 9 months of leave, then went back part time - it was financially extremely hard (even living outside London; but back then no funded hours at nursery).

We took a lodger in our second bedroom until baby was 3 months old.

The sacrifices are really big, but we wanted kids more than we wanted anything else.

Live in zone 4. It's great life with London a short tube ride in and lots of green spaces if you choose the right area.
House prices are cheaper too.

Agree, but the two bed flat as soon as you can ( to save on rent) then save as much as you can for the next 3 / 4 years and try for a baby then, hopefully ye will have a bit of a cushion of savings then, I think it should be doable, you might have to live minimally but a lot of people get into the habit of wasting so much money on stuff like coffees / takeaways etc that you probably won’t even miss these things when you think of what you are saving for in the end

We wouldn't be able to afford a place to live and have children in London.
UK is bigger than London.

Live further out, based on what you have said you can buy in the suburbs with deposit, you don't say your dps income so I've assumed £35k

How sure are you about that £1600 OP?

My local nurseries more like £2,200-2,500 for an under 3 now, maybe £2,000 inc 15 free hours.

None seem to be offering the extra 15 hours.

You are going to have a very poor quality of life on a household income of ~£3k post tax in London raising a family.

You would barely be able to rent a two-bed flat and pay the bills.

It’s less than 2x people on minimum wage.

How much is your housing?

A nursery place alone would cost 2/3 of that £50k income.

I think yiu underestimate the opportunities and salarys in other cities. Maybe look at Liverpool Sheffield Leeds or Bristol.

Move North. It's so much better!
If living near London and earning more money is more important to you than having children. Then don't have children. But please let your partner know now and don't drag it out past her fertile years.

You don't sound that bothered about having them. Plenty of poor people manage.

Disagree with your assertion that commuter belt housing/transport costs are no cheaper overall than living in London. Train prices really vary and it’s worth looking carefully at that, housing (for rent and to buy) is expensive but much less so than London but overall it’s usually cheaper to commute.

commuting is a pain if more than 3 days per week IME but do-able.

there could also be better childcare options in the commuter belt, eg more childminders with spaces, lower staff turnover in nurseries.

In your situation I’d move out of London, ttc and rent.

Or yes, move to another, cheaper city with job prospects

A public sector worker won't earn substantially less out of London, public sector pay is relatively uniform and doesn't vary hugely, my London weighting is minimal.

How much less would a solicitor earn out of London? If your salary aim is only £70-80k in London, I'd have thought you'd be able to earn a decent amount even if not as much, to get a much better house cost to wage ratio than what you're facing in London?

Whatever you think it’s going to cost: double it. And that’s all I’m saying on the matter.

As @Amba1998 says as a qualified solicitor you'd earn that and possibly more in Manchester or Leeds. House prices would also be cheaper.

If you genuinely can't support yourselves and a child on £70k (plus your partner's public sector salary of presumably £30k or so) then I tend to agree you possibly shouldn't have children.

Surely the £170 saving quoted in the post is close enough ( like £,10 difference) to not be quibbling about.

It’s only temporary, assuming you aren’t going to send them to independent school?

Tbh, I’d stay as you are and enjoy great holidays and early retirement ☺️☺️

I was speaking to a friend in a similar position yesterday. My advice is not to worry about money. If you really want a child you will make it work. You will cut back on expenses for the adults - holidays and memberships and going out and staying in a rented place and moving out of London even, maybe - in a way that won't seem possible or feasible now.

The fact that you are worried about it - that you are considering all of this - is also good omens that you will be a good parent. Good parents worry about things!

(Obviously, if you were on the bones of your arse, I would recommend some changes first, but you aren't)

Good on you for wanting to do it properly OP, firstly, that says a lot about the thoughtful parents you will be. Buy your flat as soon as you can for security, and move a bit further out if you have to. No need to move out of London.
Also, 30 is young to have kids in London. How old is your partner? Who is having the baby and what is their maternity pay package like? Do you know you need to pay for fertility treatment? (you will always need to pay for legal fees)? Can you get on an NHS waiting list if you think you might need fertility help, now? Go to the GP and ask.
Its all doable without family support if you have friends going through same life stage as you, and you can meet others through prenatal group if you don’t already have friends in the same boat. You won’t be living the same life with kids so your costs will be different. Good luck.

Couples on way less have children in London and are fine. You don't need to own a house on day 1 for a start.

You can both switch to a 4 day week (compressed hrs or otherwise). nursery fees would be much less for 3 days and you'll get more time with baby. As long as you earn less than £100k you'll get a tax free childcare gov account.

Getting key items second hand saves a fortune.

It sounds like you have a simple choice, either stay in London and focus your time and money on friends and current lifestyle, or relocate and focus your time and money on having a family.
Everyone would like to have it all, most people can’t.

@HildegardVonBingham You’re overthinking it. I live in Surrey, both of us are on an average wage - no where near what is comfortable even for our two bed home. Yes things were very very tight for the first couple of years of nursery because there was no funding however the commute to London from places like Woking is less than 30 mins to Waterloo and much more affordable than London. You could get a two bed for £400-£450k. I don’t live in Woking but most friends who do have commuting jobs into London. Surbiton is another with a quick train in, but more expensive property wise. Unfortunately most people in life have to sacrifice something along the way. I understand you not wanting to move far away, I am in the same position myself where I want to stay close to family, but I turn have had to make financial sacrifices as we would be far better off moving an hour or two away.