to think I can't afford to have children?

[HildegardVonBingham]

Hi all,

I will try and keep this short. This is as much a social mobility q as anything else, really.

My partner and I live in London in a rented flat. She works in the public sector and I am a trainee solicitor. I am 30, I used to work in FS.

I'm at a mid-tier firm, and don't intend to qualify into a corporate seat. But if I qualify as planned - into private client or something a bit less gruelling - I should still earn what would be a good salary anywhere else in the country - c.£70-80k. Today I sat down and did the maths on how much it would cost me and my partner to buy a two-bedroom flat, as we'd like to try and have a baby a couple of years after I qualify (this isn't factoring in the cost of IVF, sperm donor etc... we have loads of gay male friends...)

Neither of us have family money behind us, and it would cost us c.£2k per month to buy a two bedroom flat on c.90% LTV. It seems manageable on paper. I then looked at nursery fees in London (c.£1600 per month), how much tax I'd be paying, the fact that you're basically ineligible for any kind of state child support at past c.£60k. I thought about the fact that I work loads now and that if we wanted more money I'd have to try and move somewhere where I'd have to work literally every hour god sends, which sort of defeats the point of having a partner and child. With a mortgage and childcare we would be 'on' c.£700 per month less than we are now, even with my benchmark post-qual salary. This would not be manageable as I find things quite tight as is.

I'm not asking for sympathy because I know I'm lucky but however I try and square it, it's not feasible for two young professionals in London to buy a flat and have one child without either family money or one partner on a monster salary. For a monster salary, you have to work monster hours - and so then you don't see your family.

Again, I know I'm lucky, but the whole thing makes me feel a bit despondent. My mum had to work two jobs when I was small, and we always worried about money. My dad lost all his money getting divorced twice. I really want to be able to have just one child but increasingly I think I would rather have none at all than have one and bring them up in financial precarity / insecure housing. I know some people would say that we should leave London, but all our friends are here and we both love it.

AIBU to worry that I can't afford to have kids? Putting hard hat on as have seen that some threads like this don't go down well.

HilledegardVonBingham you said its a social mobility question but it isnt really is it. If you are not willing to move out of London or accept that you will have several very tight years then that is your choice. Kids are expensive in the early years but so is housing in London.
I had my kids in a professional role when there were no funded hours available but childcare vouchers from a salary sacrifice scheme helped a little. Virtually my whole wage was swallowed up by childcare but it was only for a few years.

I agree. Childcare fees are astronomical. We have two in nursery (1 year old, 3 year old) and it’s £2,500 a month. We moved 40 mins out of London to buy a place big enough to house all the stuff that comes with kids, and space for the kids themselves. We’re both high earners yet never have any money (also high mortgage due to the horrendous interest rates). It’s tough and we’re accruing some debt but as this poster says, this is only about 3 years of your whole life and financial freedom will come back at some point.

(this isn't factoring in the cost of IVF, sperm donor etc... we have loads of gay male friends...)

On a slightly different point - it’s not something I know a lot about but I would be looking into the rights/responsibilities of the gay male friend in this situation.

Yes, but house prices and rent are cheaper the further north you go. That's why salaries are usually less. It's up to you whether you want to prioritise being close to friends or moving away and starting a family. I'm guessing you're a lesbian couple? I don't know much about it but I assume iui with sperm donation is significantly cheaper than IVF. Nurseries are cheaper outside inner London too.

Which part of London was this out of interest? Was it somewhere one would WANT to raise a family, given a choice? Where I am (not smart but safe, and solid schools), a two bed flat costs a minimum of £1,800 a month to rent, and one beds are never less than £1,200. With bills and food I can’t see how a small salary would work. Also given the OP’s career choice, I’m guessing they don’t want a massive commute from zone 6, that means never seeing their family should they have one.

Haven’t RTFT, just op’s post, but remember that you can both salary sacrifice into a private pension to keep your salaries below £100k each, to ensure you are able to access the funded hours (they aren’t free, but it does reduce the cost)

This is the age where my friends started leaving London. You might still be alone if you stay. Problem is everyone faces this.

London isn't that fun for kids or practical

Also friends without kids are on a different life trajectory and there is less in common, so it's likely you will also want friends with kids. Likely those that stay in London won't have kids. Not to say you won't still be friends but it's different and you will be making new friends anyway. Doing it where you have a better quality of life

Hi OP
If you're on £70k your take home approx £3,800. I don't know what your girlfriend earns, say £30k (£2,000 take home). Your combined income £5,800

• £2,000 mortgage
• £1,600 nursery (could you reduce this- funded hours, family help, one of you reducing hours for a bit?)
• £2,200 for bills, food & spending which is plenty. A lot of people even in London live on that per month.

I know you say you're struggling as it is and you'd be losing £700/ month but I'd say do a proper budget/ look & see where your money is going. £2,200 for bills, food & spending is ample - you can still have holidays & treats with that. And that's assuming your girlfriend earns £30k- might be more.

Am I missing something?

I can't really answer if you can afford it as being in £700 less is neither here nor there, if the remaining amount is enough to cover the bills.

You say it's tight now, and it might be, but is that because you are saving for a deposit and enjoying your money a bit with holidays and dinner out. If it's that you can break from saving and you might have to be frugal for the nursery years.

I think this is the reason why I meet loads and loads of people with preschool aged children who have recently moved from London. Literally about 70% of the parents I meet at groups/on the nursery run.

But why do you think earning 60k disqualifies you from government help with childcare? You can get the tax free childcare and the 30 free hours for free yearolds as long as both parents earn less than 100k.

Surely you can be a solicitor anywhere? Your 60/70k salary probably buys you what a 40/50k salary would in Birmingham. Your London pounds are worth less than my brummie ones.

I think the childcare allowances are changing so from 2025 you will get 30 hours funded:

https://educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2024/04/free-childcare-how-we-tackling-the-cost-of-childcare/

I would also suggest to look at where you buy your flat, my fiends and a I have all moved from zone 1/2 in London to zone 3/4. Primary schools a big factor in our location search. It is doable but a big lifestyle change.

I grew up in London and still live here with my family on less than you earn and at a decade older. Things family's in my social circle have done to manage to afford to have children London on 'normal' salaries are:

.Live in 1 bed flats for years whilst the baby is small
. Both parents work condensed hrs so only 3 days childcare are needed.
. Save up for maternity leave and take the full year
. Use childminders or more affordable nursery's
. Live in smallish flats, even when children are big (this is normal in cities in most other countries!)
. Make the most of all the free things that inner London has for children, loads of free or very subsidised activities, holiday clubs, adventure playgrounds, school meals
. Only have 1 child
. Move out of London - about 50% of friends I grew up with has done this when they have a baby - the number of children in inner London has fallen very rapidly.

It's the housing costs which without family help are very hard to overcome. Unfortunately age has disadvantaged you.

Could you move to another city and get a law job there?

But there really is something wrong that a professional couple cannot afford both a modest home and a single child in the Borough of London. Somethings gone wrong with our society.

Absolutely & it's not good for those having dc

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly559jnd2zo.amp

Lots of sensible advice on here. I actually hated London,DH was born there and couldn't wait to leave..I'm the boomer generation that everyone thinks had it so cushy! When my late parents, bought their first house,2 up 2 down,in the 70s, DM worked ft office based but not 9-5 much longer hours,then she cooked a quick meal, worked in a local pub,till midnight,up at 6 the next morning. First H and I had a couple of rooms share a bathroom,in 1970 London,then a couple of rooms above the shop he was managing,made homeless by burglaries and shop closure. Bought a caravan,metal cold/hot box, not a fancy park home. Lived there 5 years, one DD. Wanted more kids, bought 2 up 2 down,had D's x2. Mortgage rate in the early 80s 12% 18 months later 16%. There was a limited to the amount of years you could add on. So ex H,had 2, jobs, I had 4, he worked nights mostly,so I worked days, nursing, local hospital,a night in a nursing home,a nursing agency and a cleaning job cash in hand. That's how we kept a roof over our head. Second DH,2 nasty divorces and homeless
I was pushing 40, he had no DKs. The only way we made it work,was I went back to work ft nights. Maternity leave in the 70/80s was 6 weeks after the birth. There was no government help with childcare. We did actually move from Surrey, just 15 miles away to Sussex for cheaper property,in order to get a decent 3 bedroom house.

* It's* a matter of priorities, if you really really wanted a baby, money wouldn’t be the be all and end all.

But the narrative is "don't have dc you can't afford"

Does it? My mortgage on my three bed house and train into London is less than you quote as your costs for a two bed in London.

Did you buy recently? My mortgage is less than the OPs rent on my London house but you wouldn't be able to buy it at the price I paid today...

Archway. Many of my friends are quite happy to raise families there but not sure it passes your sniff test. Yes, my 1 bed flat was just over 1,1k rent per month which I could perfectly manage alone on 35k salary. So my comment about trimming expenses stands.

Yes, my 1 bed flat was just over 1,1k rent per month which I could perfectly manage alone on 35k salary.

Do you think the rent is still 1.1k today?

Two & half years ago I did a 5 yr mortgage fix for 2.5%...

And because of inflation 35k 2 yrs ago is 40k today.

September 2024. Not a fashionable area, but life is all about compromises.

I'm a Londoner & parts of London were a bit dodge & not fashionable in the slightest when I was growing up. That has never bothered me but when we debated leaving London I struggled to find cheap areas with fast & cheap commutes & decent schools tbh.

Hi all, thanks for your messages - I found lots of them really useful!

TBH my partner and I have talked about moving to Manchester for a while - one of my old colleagues and his wife and daughter moved there recently and he seems to really like it. I suppose I am being selfish in that if we moved I would want to do so a couple of years post-qual so that I could move to a firm with interesting work, having obtained a bit more experience (and legal hiring in Manchester has apparently cooled a bit recently.) I do think about the 'tipping point' at which lots of my friends may leave the city because they want to have kids - I already feel a bit jealous of some of my friends whose parents have bought them flats in the city and I feel like those financial divides only entrench as you get older and have kids etc...

It is nice to hear from both people who have moved out and people who have stayed and so thank you for all your constructive comments.

I've also had a bit of a think about my spending. I think I'm quite frugal because I cycle and bring a packed lunch, but - on reflection - I definitely experienced a bit of lifestyle creep in my old job. I would think nothing of spending c.£200 on a dress, buying expensive dinners and presents etc. I am going to limit myself to one £3.80 flat white a week, stop going in the tesco metro, and remove the ebay app (with its standing 'ganni size 12 alert') from my phone!

I have quite a few younger colleagues who over the years have left for other cities. Manchester seems very popular. tbh if it wasn't for the fact DH & I are Londoners we would have left. All our family are here so we stayed.

You can afford to have children or live in London. Not both. I'd imagine the same is true for many people. We have a total of 40k coming in our household with 2 kids. In the North. We're fine.

Manc has loads of firms with interesting work. It’s the legal centre after London. All the big firms are there. Plus a choice of smaller / mid tier. I don’t see why you need to 2 years in London 1st

first I’ve heard about cooling recruitment in Manc at the moment too.

have you actually spoke to a recruiter in the region?