to think I can't afford to have children?

[HildegardVonBingham]

Hi all,

I will try and keep this short. This is as much a social mobility q as anything else, really.

My partner and I live in London in a rented flat. She works in the public sector and I am a trainee solicitor. I am 30, I used to work in FS.

I'm at a mid-tier firm, and don't intend to qualify into a corporate seat. But if I qualify as planned - into private client or something a bit less gruelling - I should still earn what would be a good salary anywhere else in the country - c.£70-80k. Today I sat down and did the maths on how much it would cost me and my partner to buy a two-bedroom flat, as we'd like to try and have a baby a couple of years after I qualify (this isn't factoring in the cost of IVF, sperm donor etc... we have loads of gay male friends...)

Neither of us have family money behind us, and it would cost us c.£2k per month to buy a two bedroom flat on c.90% LTV. It seems manageable on paper. I then looked at nursery fees in London (c.£1600 per month), how much tax I'd be paying, the fact that you're basically ineligible for any kind of state child support at past c.£60k. I thought about the fact that I work loads now and that if we wanted more money I'd have to try and move somewhere where I'd have to work literally every hour god sends, which sort of defeats the point of having a partner and child. With a mortgage and childcare we would be 'on' c.£700 per month less than we are now, even with my benchmark post-qual salary. This would not be manageable as I find things quite tight as is.

I'm not asking for sympathy because I know I'm lucky but however I try and square it, it's not feasible for two young professionals in London to buy a flat and have one child without either family money or one partner on a monster salary. For a monster salary, you have to work monster hours - and so then you don't see your family.

Again, I know I'm lucky, but the whole thing makes me feel a bit despondent. My mum had to work two jobs when I was small, and we always worried about money. My dad lost all his money getting divorced twice. I really want to be able to have just one child but increasingly I think I would rather have none at all than have one and bring them up in financial precarity / insecure housing. I know some people would say that we should leave London, but all our friends are here and we both love it.

AIBU to worry that I can't afford to have kids? Putting hard hat on as have seen that some threads like this don't go down well.

I already feel a bit jealous of some of my friends whose parents have bought them flats in the city and I feel like those financial divides only entrench as you get older and have kids etc...

They do, the people who often have help to got on the ladder, move up it, with private school, holidays etc. The area we had a flat in changed a lot over the years & we sold it to parents buying it for their dc which was pretty typical. The demographic has completely changed and family money/help is on another level.

This right here. If you want children, you wouldn’t want to not have them and regret it all because you refused to move out of London.

You can afford to have children or live in London. Not both. I'd imagine the same is true for many people. We have a total of 40k coming in our household with 2 kids. In the North. We're fine.

So there are no children being born in London to parents earning under £100k.....?

You're not ineligible over £60k. That's the child benefit threshold. It's not to do with nursery.

If neither parent earns £100k then you are currently entitled to 15 free hours week under age 3 and 30 free hours after that. And the gov is moving towards 30'free hours for all over 9mmonths.

It's most likely one or both of you will work part time after children too - even if you think you don't want to, the reality is that parenting is hard and it's pretty much impossible to have two full time careers if you can't afford a nanny. So you're not looking at the reality of your income and expenditure - you're looking at worst case scenario based on a property you don't own and a child you haven't yet conceived.

Don't put off having a family if it's what you want. It only gets harder the older you get.

Of course

I agree with posters saying there is something wrong with society that you can't afford a flat and a single child in London - but that's not going to change unless one of you gets a high flying career.

Unfortunately, your options are your options, and they are the same ones that everyone else is grappling with right now.

• You can move out of London completely - including relocating your careers - and have a good life with a child and probably a house rather than a flat (this would be my choice personally)

• You can stay in London in your current situation, have a child anyway and try to have it all, but likely have a reduced quality of life and struggle for money.

• You can stay in London and not have a child, and continue your current lifestyle.

• You can stay in London and aim for one or both of you to get better paying jobs.

Your situation is no different from any of us - you just have to make the choice that works for you.

You can get a 2 bed cheaper than 2K a month - it's worth exploring your options. I'm in zone 3 north London and you can get a 2 bed ex council flat for around 375K. That's around £1500 a month for a 35 year mortgage at 90% LTV. Zone 4 south London you may find even cheaper.

You can get a 2 bed cheaper than 2K a month - it's worth exploring your options. I'm in zone 3 north London and you can get a 2 bed ex council flat for around 375K. That's around £1500 a month for a 35 year mortgage at 90% LTV. Zone 4 south London you may find even cheaper.

Some lenders have tightened up on 90% mortgages particularly if for a flat. And I'm not sure the repayments would be £1500 as the rates will be less favourable with that LTV.

You don't need the 2 bed flat right away. We had our child in with us until age 2, I know of people who've been in a 1-bed till the child is 5 or 6.

Yabu to say that you can't afford a child - there are plenty of families on less than half your income who survive fine, even within London.

You can't add a child to your current life setup without some things needing to give. That's not the same as "can't afford" that's valuing the things you'd need to change as more valuable to you than becoming parents. That's a valid choice just don't claim it as being unable to afford it.

Some people can't leave London and absolutely can afford dc on those wages. A few things...

• You will get some government funded hours and this will reduce your childcare costs
• Not everyone needs IVF, IUI can be used with sperm donation and is substantially less. Gay male friends may need IVF b/c their surrogate needs an embryo implanted so the baby isn't genetically the surrogates baby. Many lesbian couples use IUI unless of course sadly that doesn't work.
• Start saving so you have extra to fund parental leave and anything that arises while your budget is tighter
• Growing up in rental accommodation isn't terrible and is actually quite common for middle class children in London though if you can buy that's wonderful too.
• Can you move to a cheaper part of London? A friend whose a nurse moved to another borough in order for them to be able to afford to buy. They bought a house that needs work, had 2 dc and have a 20 year plan to get that work done. They know on their wages they can't have it all.

Speaking of that, I think it's good to remember you can't have everything you want at the same time. You have to choose. What's most important? For me it was that I wanted to start a family and so other things went by the wayside. We have friends who say they can't afford dc and earn more, plus have £ family money, they take a couple very nice international trips a year, eat out 3x a week etc - so the truth is not giving up their lifestyle was why they couldn't afford dc. You may not live like our friends, but truthfully most people on those wages can reduce outgoings somehow and/or sacrifice something - home ownership, part of London they live in, type of home they buy, how much they can save etc.

If having one or more dc is your priority, make it happen.

Good luck!

We did it on £30k and £40k salaries. Moved outside London, bought a 3 bed house that needed work, still worked in London.
Used IUI to conceive. I worked 4 days and took the hit in salary.
It was all affordable. If both of you moved to 4 day weeks - saves in child care costs. If you have flex hours - saves. If you move and neg 2/3 office days and WFH - works.
You can well afford it, and the childcare costs aren’t forever.

Decide what you want from life. We have no regrets, and two amazing kids, but most of our childless gay friends have holiday homes and/or are free to go in amazing trips and holidays constantly!
I don’t mind a Eurocamp and the occasional long haul to see family over going to Bali every 5 mins or owning a place in Spain.

Having children means they are the priority and your life revolves around that, and your money is going to go in feeding, clothing then and giving them enrichments opportunities. Or it should.
Having said that though… I love LEGO! Have met amazing friends through the kids. Don’t mind early nights and early mornings, it’s another way to see the world. Have become a kids sports coach and re-ignited my inner kids with all the fairground rides, dressing up, going to Disney, watching kids movies at the cinema etc.

Nursery is short term (this is often forgotten) but yes, we made the decision to move away from the south east and prioritise having a family. You can rarely have it all so have to make those decisions as to what you’ll give up and what is importance. We live in a cheaper part of the country and earn less than we would in London, but have 3dc and a 4 bed house while earning less than you.

‘Not everyone needs IVF, IUI can be used with sperm donation and is substantially less’

THIS. We spent less than £4K conceiving 2 kids with sperm donation from a sperm bank.
If you have no obvious fertility issues ( your hormones will be checked) do this first. I know lots of women who conceived with a couple of goes of IUI. We conceived first time BOTH times - despite being ‘geriatric’ ie over 35!

Yes. But there are two of them. Even if they both earn minimum wage (which is doubtful) they will be earning more than 40k combined. And if the OP alone earns 40k, then combined with her partner's salary it's hard to imagine that things are as tight as we are led to believe unless there is a certain lifestyle they expect. And as I said, it's perfectly fine to expect a nice lifestyle but it doesn't mean one cannot afford a child in principle. They just can't afford to have a child and have a nice lifestyle which is where a conversation about priorities comes in.

When you have DCs all your childfree friends will dump you anyway so that's no reason to stay.

You have jobs you can do outside London.

No one has it all.

Leave London & have a family.

Is this good national policy, that London should be only for the rich?

I found an old bank statement from 2019 the other day and worked out that after paying the rent I had only 400 to spend on everything else a month at that time. That was me and one child.

Somehow I still managed to survive for a few years even in the COVID lockdown like that. I honestly don't think you need much for one young child and I think people on this site overestimate the cost and end up delaying having kids till it's too late.
They do get more expensive as they get older but by that time they are in school and you can work more.

I think people overthink things a lot on this site and overestimate how much kids cost I found a bank statement from 2019 the other day and worked out I only had 400 a month for everything else after paying the rent and that was with one child. In hindsight I have no idea how I managed that but I did lol 2.7k after nursery and mortgage should be easy. Just go for it op.

I don't think threads like the one I saw the other day about how much people were saving for their DCs house deposits help a lot were saying 30+k per child. Obviously in the real world most people aren't doing that but for someone thinking of becoming a parent reading threads like that I can see why they wouldn't want to have a child because it feels like every other kid will have a fat deposit for a house when they turn 18.

@Catza my point was simply that the landscape is very different today vs 2 years ago.,.

I don't think threads like the one I saw the other day about how much people were saving for their DCs house deposits help a lot were saying 30+k per child. Obviously in the real world most people aren't doing that but for someone thinking of becoming a parent reading threads like that I can see why they wouldn't want to have a child because it feels like every other kid will have a fat deposit for a house when they turn 18.

But lots on here will chastise someone for having dc before buying & think it's prudent as a parent to fund uni/house deposits etc.

The difficulty is housing has become a bit of an Inheritocracy & whether dc have help
or not is often more important than their career/salary.

i'm older than the OP and don't know anyone who bought without help either cash gift or living at home for free/cheap to save up or both.

You can overpay your account and still fully make sure of the £2000 per year, per child. I have done this for the last 6 years, so yes it will take down her bill by this much.

Friends without help have bought a lot later/moved etc.

I honestly think there's a lot of people that lie about their income on Mumsnet which further cascades into people on a more average/low income not bothering to post out of embarrassment so it just becomes an echo chamber of people claiming to earn 100k a year. The same with the child's deposit thread the other day in the real world most people aren't saving up for their child's house deposit and that wouldn't factor into their decision to have a child.

For a prospective parent thinking about having a child I can imagine they'd read Mumsnet threads and be put off because it would feel like most other children will be having far wealthier lives than their own.