Do you put work before DC?

[Saycheeseburgers]

I work in a male team where my colleagues put work first, without a doubt. Working late most nights, skipping taking their children to activities in favour of working.

I just won’t do this. I imagine it might impact my promotionability, but I don’t believe it should so for now I don’t care. I work hard during my work hours, but I finish by 5-5:30pm to meet my DC needs. I don’t miss Christmas shows or assemblies (I take my own flexi time to make up for these).

But I refuse to work late countless evenings because who will remember that or thank me?

If you'd put this as your question, I'd have answered very differently.

This

Exactly

Not only a place of luxury in that you don't seem to have any pressure from targets, but also a place of ease in that you don't seem to have the responsibility of dealing with people and situations that are unpredictable. Be that attending court, be that safeguarding, be that medical emergencies, or other things. Not everyone can just decide to stop work at a particular time.
It doesn't mean they are lesser parents.

Well sometimes, kind of - at 2pm on a weekday if I get a phone call saying dd2 has a headache and she doesn't want to go to afterschool club - sorry, I'm not dropping everything just because she wants to come home an hour earlier than DH was picking her up anyway.

But I'm not travelling in February because there are parents evenings and concerts, I won't miss those, and I work part time in order to be able to take them swimming and to Stagecoach etc.

Work absolutely comes first for me when I’m at work, emergency aside, obviously. But my job, while demanding, is very flexible in terms of hours. DH and I put off having a child so that we’d both be fairly senior, and more flexible for that reason.

Not always as I run a business so I've been away, late nights, business trips etc so I've had to be selfish.

But my DH has picked up and been home etc, so they have always had a parent around.

No, absolutely. And sometimes I wish I did have that sort of job - as I find mine crushingly boring some days (not every day). But as I said - Civil Service - so in reality, very little responsibility and very low stakes which some colleagues make it feel like life or death!

But I know if I retrained as a midwife, for example, I would get fed up with the NHS processes and bureaucracy the way I am with the CS.

Have a medal OP. For being such a great parent.

How do you think those who are working late or overtime would answer? Would they say ‘yeah we put work first, we don’t even like our children’. I doubt it.

They would probably say ‘they are putting their children first by prioritising their standard of living, earning money and keeping their jobs’.

It’s about individual circumstances and perspective. It’s not a binary thing.

No. Not anymore. This is why I am no longer a teacher. Inflexibility was not family friendly

I've missed kid things for work and work things for my children. Each day is a new adventure and there's always a massive balancing act to work out.

Sounds like you hate your job and it isn't working for the life you want. Maybe time to think about a change?

Like most people I think it’s a balance, and not my choice! I work as a teacher (part time so I can do some school runs and be around two days a week). I have the holidays off with them, but if sports days and performances fall on my work days I can’t always get them off as I can’t book leave. 🤷‍♀️ Like most people I’m doing the best I can! But I try really hard to not put work before them.

It varies, overall no but there are times when I’ve missed things for DC due to work. I’m the higher earner but have more flexibility, although I need to travel (within the UK) sometimes. It’s a balance. I’ve found in my career an interesting mix of it, some men as OP describes, some men who are the opposite (there’s a guy in DS’s football team who often sits on his laptop at training so has clearly left work to be able to come) and some women at both ends of the scale. The most extreme “work, work, work” person was a mother of 3 kids.

It is quite literally going the extra mile though! If you have 2 employees and one outputs 10 widgets because they work really hard 9-5 and that's what they can do in that time whereas one outputs 15 widgets because they stay late & do extra, I think it's fair to promote the second person first.

What is absolutely wrong is to up everyone's target to 15 widgets or create a culture where 10 widgets is looked down upon. The 10 widget person should still have opportunities to progress just not necessarily as fast as the 15.

My employer is flexible and I work from home so I do get to attend school activities etc. however, I am a single parent and I have to work when the children are in bed, before they get up and sometimes they've been left watching TV whilst I work.

There is a balance as I have to pay the bills to keep them in a nice life. Work does not come before my children though, no, of course not.

Surely prioritising work IS prioritising your family, if they depend on your salary for survival?

I think this is where so much guilt comes from for women. We still somehow have the sexist ideal that men should be out there, providing for their family in whichever way possible - and it's nice if women can contribute, but god forbid their careers get in the way of their 'main' priority of childrearing 🙄 If a man gets a promotion which involves late nights and travel, 'oooh what a great provider' - if it's a woman, everyone's questioning how she could abandon her poor kids.

I prioritise my career when I need to, and DS always - but it's a balancing act. I don't need to anymore, but there shouldn't be shame in missing the odd child related event, IN ORDER TO WORK AND PROVIDE FOR THAT CHILD.

I too think it’s a balance, my kids come first day to day. I take time out of work for things they need me for. There are also times when I’m working on a deadline or something happens at work when that needs to come first. Surely that’s the case for most people. The men you describe probably have a woman picking up the slack somewhere to enable them to work late every night.

Yes, I agree with the original post. I think many parents, male and female although mainly male, don't see parenting as requiring the time and attention they would give their job.

I was semi-forced to quit my job - asked if I could go part-time and was told no. So I have been a SAHM for years and have seen many parents miss things. Most children are upset and sometimes embarrassed when they do but often it depends on the parents job. If your mum or dad is in the NHS, other emergency services or physical job, most kids understand why they're not there. When they work in an office, some are upset that other office-based parents are there but theirs isn't.

I also think there's a lot of bullshit. Yes, maybe you might miss something once if you work an office job. But all the things? That's on you as a bad planner - if you're that important, you should have cover. Who does this important work if you're in a car accident?

My DH is often in a completely male environment and often aged 45+. They did horrendously anti-family hours (think 7am to 3.30pm so you miss both school runs) and didn't give a monkeys. Their wives did the kids. They weren't interested at all and part-time hours was laughed out of the room. They didn't want to do it and work was absolutely an excuse.

Judgey? Yep.
Do I care? Nope.

I would promote both people but I bet only 1 would still be in the job 2 years later. People burn out very easily and if getting on is all you care about, there's always a better offer.

Also, do you ever wonder WHY there is a gender pay gap? If so, read your own answer.

I guess I'm alone in saying yes I have done. Yes I work in a toxic public sector role. And yes I always regret putting the job ahead of my kids. Why do I do it? I'm not in a clock in and out kind of job. I'll be hauled over the coals if someone dies/ is harmed. That fear keeps me doing it.

@Saycheeseburgers please tell us this civil service dept as I work in one and it is very much life and death.

@Scaredtosayitoutloud your post is missing my point a bit- you can't just say you'd promote both. In most teams, most people are making 10 widgets. A few might be lazy/ less capable and make 5, and a few might go the extra mile and make 15. Often with promotions there are only 1 or 2 spots available. Why shouldn't the people who work the hardest get them?

I accept that this is the reason that men often progress faster & earn more than women but there really is no solution except husbands and wives choosing to structure their marriages differently.

There is nothing stopping the woman working late and telling her husband to leave at 5 on the dot to sort the kids in which case she should be in line for fast promotion.

Also, if someone was leaving at 5 on the dot because they wanted to go yodelling every evening & didn't have kids, and someone else stayed doing extra until 6pm, would you promote both then? Or is it just mothers you think should get a special pass?

Everyone cuts their cloth. Mine is leaving on time to be with kids & accepting my career won't accelerate during these precious years. I'd never imagine I'd be promoted for doing the bare minimum (working hard within my contracted hours is the bare minimum in my industry). My DH is staying late to accelerate his career & missing some precious things with DC. To each their own!

Interesting points. I actually had this discussion in one of my previous jobs when i was asked why I didn't log on immediately when I arrived at 8.10am but waited until 8.30am. I asked why I should have to do 20 mins overtime every day just because I shared a car and was told 'it looked good'. (I was promoted anyway because skills but left due to sexism.)

To keep using your example though, I'd like to know how many widgets each team member made in the time allowed. If the late-stayer only does 7 in the day and has to stay late to meet his targets, which he then exceeeds, that's not necessarily better performance.

I have worked in finance all my life, and have dabbled in pay roll jobs over the years. If there is a glitch with the computer system or it takes longer than expected I do overtime, because otherwise people simply dont get paid. Yes, it might only be an 'office job' but all the employees depend on me so they can pay their bills etc. Can you imagine their reaction if I said sorry team your pay will be delayed because I have to watch my DD's hockey game!

Dh was self employed for a long time, and we relied on my job for a stable income, so I couldnt risk the sack. Luckily he could attend school athletics / school plays / ferry DD to hobbies. If I am honest, he attended far more of the primary school events than I ever did, and DD (she's an adult) and I have a fantastic relationship but he worked weekends so I did the bulk of childcare at weekends (kids parties, weekend sport etc).

@anonhop sounds great in practice. Yes everyone let's pretend it's as easy as saying it'll all be split equally. The fact is that generally men earn more (often even for doing the same job), there is still a gender pay gap. This is often exasperated when the woman goes on maternity leave. So then we're in 'but I earn more, my job is more important territory' so the the man gets to get off doing half the parenting and stay at the office doing his ever so 'important' job knowing he's getting out of bedtime etc.

Women are therefore normally the ones having to ask for time off, needed if to go early or eventually going compressed hours or part time. Thus reducing their ability to progress earn more. And so the cycle continues.

I don't care what anyone says, it's very difficult to get a man to step up and it's difficult to tell what they'll be like before children. if they don't want to do it they will throw out every excuse and then bring in their trump card of learned helplessness. The stress in the mother is huge as she always puts her children first. In my experience most men put themselves first. I know I'll get a load of posts saying 'no not true my DH is brilliant' but sorry this is not the norm imo.

This country is still full of men not stepping up, not paying for their children and not taking responsibility.