To think we need to re-think security for children's schools and clubs following Southport

[caffelattetogo]

Before I start, this is absolutely not blaming the victims or anyone who organised the holiday club in Southport. It's easy to be wise after the event.

But, I really think that we need new risk assessments for anywhere that children are, ones that look more at their safety. These monsters target children, so anywhere that children are needs to think about locked doors, video doorbell cameras, extra security measures, anything we can to keep them safer.

Mental health services are struggling and the early warning signs are being missed. We have dangerous people free to plan activities like this, and while we shouldn't need to, I think we need to be aware.

I have thought about this when planning my children's clubs following the attack, and chosen ones with better security measures.

Similarly, I'm concerned about the security at DCs' school and nursery, where doors are often left open.

I know these attacks are rare, but I would feel safer knowing that they were behind locked doors.

AIBU?

No, absolutely. But I'm with them at the park.

You won't always be with them, though. They'll reach an age when they can and should be going to the park and elsewhere without an adult.

And tragic as the events in Southport are, children are still most at risk from adults known to them, not random strangers.

I was a school child when Dunblane happened. After it our doors were locked & had security entrances/staff watching.

I think we should ensure that other child venues are the same.

Schools are locked.
But church halls and gyms used by scouts and guides often open their firedoors for fresh air in summer. I appreciate this is a security risk but I also think that stifling kids in over hot buildings without fresh air flow because 'it's too dangerous to open the door' is not the way we want to live. I think we need to keep this event in proportion as the extremely rare occurrence (thank goodness) t hat it is.

Agree. Many schools and nurseries now have high locked fences, camera doorbells. Yet sometimes the school field or nursery garden has a normal low fence that a stranger could easily hop over, so the front of house security is more a deterrent or designed to give parents a false sense of security. I think by law all schools/holiday clubs/childcare settings need high, locked anti-climb gates surrounding entire perimeter, plus video surveillance and an on-site security gaurd monitoring this. Video-cam lock on gate that visitors enter by. Another video-cam door so receptionist can let them into building and verify who they are (prospective parents/people coming for maintenance work/social work staff etc).

Especially for younger children or those in childminder care.

I find large playgroups, remote walks, open splashpads, even places like zoos unsettling as so many people don't watch their toddlers 1:1. Or childminder takes a handful of preschoolers, how can she keep track of them all, plus be aware of surroundings? A lone male approaching or lingering near a place aimed at children raises red flags for me. I prefer places like our local leisure centre, which has locked doors to areas for children, plus you can't attend soft play sessions, children's pool or kids dance without a kid!

If someone wants to harm children I’m afraid they will find a way. What about public transport? Or children walking from/to school and clubs in big groups? What about playgrounds, kids playing football or basketball in their local field? Street fairs, libraries, eating out in McDonald’s ? there are so many places where children congregate You can’t protect them in every situation, as I said if a sick individual wants to harm someone they will find a way.
Not to mention funding and the already existing levels of bureaucracy and additional requirements placed on teachers and support staff.

Ive often thought this about my brownie group to be honest. We meet in essentially a portakabin in a small park owned by a charity. There's no cctv, no buzzer etc. We don't have the money to install anything like that and neither do the charity we rent off. We love it because in the summer we are inside, outside, free flowing, playing games, building fires etc. But it makes security a lot harder. The problem is that to move venues to a nicer building with more security would dramatically increase costs and likely make our sessions unaffordable to many of the girls who come to us. Clubs are already closing in London due to a lack of affordable community centres. So it becomes a balance of risk vs the opportunities we can offer. So tricky and I've definitely become more cautious since having my own DC.

Most decent schools are already locked to outsiders during the day. Sites are fenced and bolted, although this offers limited security.

We have to remember these are schools, not prisons. Somehow we have to find a balance that does not make children feel like they are imprisoned, or that they are at risk.

There isn't an easy answer.

I think by law all schools/holiday clubs/childcare settings need high, locked anti-climb gates surrounding entire perimeter, plus video surveillance and an on-site security gaurd monitoring this.

And who is going to pay for it?

And for activities which take place in church halls, such as Brownies, Cubs etc, it just won't be feasible.

I agree with the majority that this is not the way forward. When picking clubs and activities, I am very conscious of their safeguarding practices to ensure they are fully aware of who is entering and leaving premises, where children are, checking which adults collect children etc but everything locked is not realistic.

I have sporty children who train for football on open fields, play tennis and cricket in clubs where anyone could barge past reception if they desperately wanted to (and someone like the perpetrator in this case could well be a member with their own family). They also attend holiday clubs at all three. They also go on trips with school where an incident could happen but we can’t live our life avoiding everything in case of rare events.

It is also all well saying you are with your child at the park but if they’re any older than 6, chances are they are playing while you are standing/sitting at the side watching. If someone ran into the playground brandishing a knife you would try protect them but it doesn’t guarantee safety either.

The government need to be working on the root cause of these issues, locking children up is just not the answer

It’s horrible the way this thread is going tbh. It’s uncomfortable reading. Sounds a bit like ‘if they’d done X then Y wouldn’t have happen.

How exactly are you locking your brownie group in? A fire is much more likely than an attacker and your risk assessment should reflect that, people inside need to be able to get out quickly without a key.

I actually think it would be easier to break into prison than our local primary. You have to walk a maze of fences to a buzzer door. To then enter basically an air lock. To be photoed and id checked before you enter the actual school during school hours.

But church halls and gyms used by scouts and guides often open their firedoors for fresh air in summer. I appreciate this is a security risk but I also think that stifling kids in over hot buildings without fresh air flow because 'it's too dangerous to open the door' is not the way we want to live

Isn't it illegal to prop open fire doors? They're supposed to prevent fire spreading, eg if entrance hall with coat area caught fire.

Modern churches often have tight security. Ours has a locked gate to car park, front double doors open (and staffed by a welcome team) only to admit people at set times eg sermons, clubs, classes, choir practice). Back door is pin code protected and there's CCTV around entire building. It's purpose built with high windows for airflow, aircon for rooms without high windows (like offices and crèche room) security office so blind spots can be monitored, high secure fences and padlock on yard used at toddler group. All members who volunteer with children and all key/pin holders are crb checked.

In today's world, with terrorism and horrific acts like this on rise, I think parents have to be discerning where they send their young children. They're only at such a vulnerable age for a few years. Extra activities like cubs, dance, gymnastics aren't essential and if you do want to send them it's wise to check the security provision first. Much as I want to trust society and think the best, I've seen too much of the darkness, crime and corruption out there (used to work in forensic psychiatry).

Modern churches often have tight security. Ours has a locked gate to car park, front double doors open (and staffed by a welcome team) only to admit people at set times eg sermons, clubs, classes, choir practice).

Too bad if you just want to go in and pray, I suppose.

What about public transport? Or children walking from/to school and clubs in big groups? What about playgrounds, kids playing football or basketball in their local field? Street fairs, libraries, eating out in McDonald’s ? there are so many places where children congregate You can’t protect them in every situation, as I said if a sick individual wants to harm someone they will find a way.

True, but we can reduce risks as much as possible. Children accompanied by watchful parents on public transport, street fayres, playgrounds, libraries are less likely to be targeted. If a situation does arise, parents who are alert have more chance to spot it and keep their children safe, than a big group of children with low ratio of adults, in a building with easy access. I avoid high-crime areas as much as possible, to me the risk isn't worth it. If I do have to travel through such an area I drive or take taxis rather than trains/buses.

We all need to be vigilant in playgrounds and open areas, ideally going in a group so more adults to keep watch. I avoid certain playgrounds, or those backing onto woods, busy roads.. and I'm very wary of lone males who approach playgrounds or take a 'short cut' through.

I don't think there's any need for primary age children to walk to school alone even in a small group. If they do, we can teach them to be aware of safety rules eg. stay together, don't mess around or take detours, come straight home rather than loiter in park, if a suspicious looking person approaches teach them what to do.

It's all very well being nostalgic for the freedom we had as kids, but life has changed drastically since then, especially knife and gun crime.

No it isn’t stop trying to cause trouble, after incidents like this action is often taken to prevent repeats - for instance how the Dunblane massacre and how that led to changes in school security, it also led to the banning of handguns if I remember correctly. Hopefully something will be learned after this tragedy, especially around mental health and ignoring repeated warnings on potential offenders (although again if I remember correctly the perpetrator at Dunblane had also been flagged to authorities although I can’t recall why).

[Long post snipped] I don't think there's any need for primary age children to walk to school alone even in a small group. If they do, we can teach them to be aware of safety rules eg. stay together, don't mess around or take detours, come straight home rather than loiter in park, if a suspicious looking person approaches teach them what to do.

No wonder there's an epidemic of anxiety among children and young people.

And they are still more likely to be at risk from adults known to them than random strangers.

I think we’re facing a new kind of threat- individuals armed with knives and cars, rather than guns and explosives. A lot harder to surveil.

While we can do much better than we are with surveillance, it won’t be enough. I anticipate much greater security in schools, clubs etc- more like the US, and security features built in to public areas (as we already see with bollards etc around football stadiums).

It’s horrible and I agree harmful to society and individuals in all sorts of ways but the security services simply cannot prevent these lone attacks, and we shouldn’t let the fact that they might have prevented Southport blind us to that. It’s too easy to think that all this can be fixed with a few more security officers and better Prevent training- it can’t. Likewise stricter rules on knife sales- fine if that’s what we want but we’d be kidding ourselves to think this is going to prevent knife attacks.

Unfortunately, if someone is determined to hurt children then they will find a way. We can safeguard and lock doors etc but nothing can be prevented 100% of the time.

Like you've already said, things like this happening are incredibly rare.

I take issue with the idea that killers mainly target children and would like to see some evidence to support that contention.

Because if, as I suspect, it is not that simple, are we all going to armour and lock everything? Buses with armed drivers and sluices, armed guards in all shops and on the streets? All to prevent an event which while horrific, is also extremely rare? The reason the Southport murders have caused such shock is in part due to how rarely such crimes happen.

I think it would be far more worthwhile to invest in prevention - in the case of the Southport murders, many signs were missed. This was also the case with Wayne Couzens. It's very rare that someone just snaps out of the blue with no warning signs. Rather than lock up ourselves and our children, let's look at getting in earlier with those who are potentially very dangerous.

Not that this is going to be easy.

I'd rather there was investment in MH services and policing, rather than people having to lock themselves in all the time.

Indeed - there's another thread where a parent is threatening to keep her 18 year old son from going out if he refuses to constantly update her about where he is at any given time.

Instead of putting borders and security checkpoints around ever smaller areas of geographical space we need to put them back around our country.

The price we're currently paying for open borders and the liberal feel good factor of allowing any Tom, Dick or Harry in, is too high. I fear this is going to drag on and on for years still but the correction will come. And it will come hard.

Both my kids' schools are securely locked. The nursery we used doesn't allow any parents inside during the regular day either. Obviously you can visit when choosing it.

Honestly, this is ridiculous. We don’t want children to grow up riddled with fear over the outside world because their paranoid parents insisted they be locked in all the time.

Sure, you’ll feel safer. But if someone is determined, that isn’t going to stop them. And all you’ll do is contribute to the rising mental health issues.

But that’s okay though, isn’t it, because you’ll feel safer.