to feel like we were scammed into going to University?

[Schleep]

When I was at school (completed sixth form 2009), if you were academic it was assumed that you'd go to University. The whole thing was pushed incredibly hard on us and, in retrospect, was quite propaganda-like - we had external people come and do loads of assemblies on how amazing Uni Life was, lots and lots of talk about how University would guarantee us high paying jobs and we were repeatedly told to not worry about the debt, the interest rate is practically zero and we'd never even realise the money was coming out.
(Of course, when you're in your teens, debt looks like free money anyway)

Fast forward 10, 15 years later - and all my friends are saddled with huge debts that they'll likely be paying off for the rest of their lives.
A lot of them have had their repayment contracts changed so its no longer written off after a certain time, the payment terms are not as favourable and interest rates have gone up.

I dodged a bullet by being rebellious and dropping out after just 1 term, and that term was just before the fees tripled (at the time, you'd have thought I was ruining my life the way the University/everyone responded.) and I feel incredibly lucky. A degree would not have increased my employability and I have no student debt.
But I have friends and family genuinely upset at the hundreds they're forking out each month for something they didn't want and (at least in their cases) they simply do not use.

I find it baffling that the system was funnelling people out of the workforce, into unnecessary (in many cases) education and saddling people with huge amounts of debt.

@Schleep it was all blair's doing when they got in in 1997. It has devalued degrees. It would probably be better to go back to when there were different strands of education and then we wouldn't be failing the non academic that are better with practical skills and that the country is crying out for.

A nurse friend of mine (now retired) swears that nursing doesn't need a degree and that things like cleaning were much better under wards with matrons when the nurses did it. I think we need to go back to go forward and cancel AI (something else blair is obsessed with especially as he has too much input into the current labour party).

A report has just come out providing estimates of how much better graduates are than non-graduates:

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/doubts-about-value-of-degrees-and-university-expansion-not-backed-by-the-evidence-david-willetts-shows-in-new-report

The most important part: "Overall, an undergraduate degree is estimated to be worth on average £280,000 for men and £190,000 for women, net of tax and student loan repayments, relative to what a graduate would have earned over their lifetime had they not gone to university".

These are averages, and some people will earn more, some less - partly depending on what they want to do.

A lot depends on students' choices.

If you want to be a creative at 17, but also want to return to your home town a long way from where the work is, then a creative arts degree might be really enjoyable for three years. After that, you will have to look at what's available locally; having a certificate is not of itself going to generate a job.

But - the majority of graduate jobs and graduate traineeships are open to people from any degree.

Graduates also tend to be better at moving between roles and sectors - while apprenticeships tie you more to a specific firm or sector - so there is that too. People I know who employ both say their apprenticeships are easier to work with, because they have been housetrained from the get-go; but they would still advise their own children to go to university - for the mobility.

There are major issues with repayment rates and incomes across the board are just too low in Britain, and taxes feel really high.

Apprenticeships and vocational training can be brilliant - but there aren't enough good apprenticeships, and they can't scale easily, compared with HE.

Not educating our young people is a false economy, and a smaller sector would mean that it's the more privileged who would get to go. Most undergraduate degrees are two years and eight months - a short time, but transformative.

I agree. I'm a drop out too (thankfully). It's scandalous.

I think Blair/Brown were correct in expanding Higher Education - they could see the way the wind was blowing, that other economies across Asia were on the rise and that to compete we'd need a higher proportion of people who had completed tertiary education

More people going to uni has resulted in the inflation of qualifications needed to do jobs which before didn’t need them. It doesn’t mean the people in them are better just that there are more hurdles to get them. Quite often your degree isn’t directly related to the job. Also there’s a difference in having a target of 50% in higher education versus investing in specific areas which will benefit society.

I have mixed views on university. I went when it was free so I don't have the associated debt and maybe that skews my view slightly.

I do feel that university isn't just for the academic stuff, it allows you to grow up, learn to be independent, make mistakes safely, learn all the soft skills you need for employment and life and give you those lovely long holidays to adventure etc. I definitely changed a lot during my 3 years at uni which was partly due to uni and partly due to what I did with my summers. (I do recognise that you can get these skills without university though).

My husband on the other hand didn't go to university, went straight in to work and makes twice as much as I do. He would strongly advocate for going straight to work or an apprenticeship.

I think it very much depends on what you want to do with your life and whether you enjoy studying. If you want to be a doctor then you really need to go, if you want to become an accountant then there are other options. My first degree was a bit of a Mickey Mouse degree, it didn't lead to a qualification, however I did need it to be able to do a Masters later to become qualified I what I do, on the whole I am glad I went.

YANBU OP. The careers advice in the early 2000s was bloody awful. I remember all the assemblies etc. We even had drama groups doing "productions" showing us how terrible life would be if we didn't get a degree.
And then there was no clear advice about how to actually get a career, it hinged on the question "what do you want to do?" and there was no room at all for "I don't know".

No one told you the earning potential or job prospects of any careers so I chose badly. I thought I was being sensible choosing an "academic" subject. I wish I'd never gone to uni in the first place and had waited until I knew what I wanted to do but the advice at the time was "any degree is amazing, you'll get access to all these grad schemes" which wasn't the reality unless you'd studied very specific modules that gave you something to actually offer to employers e.g. mathematical understanding for the banking ones or an English degree with transferrable communication skills etc. My degree was deemed utterly useless by over 200 potential employers.

I graduated in the recession in 2008 and ended up working in McDonalds for years.

I'm doing a second degree now that will hopefully get me a decent career, and thank god I've finally got the space to do that, but it's taken me 20 years to save up because they pushed us into uni to study anything at all so I blew my one chance at a student loan.

Anecdotally DH & I didn't go to Uni and we're doing ok. I was pressured by my parents to go to Uni but I refused, I was so done with education and wanted to work, even if that meant starting at the bottom.

My school friends that went are now teachers so not high flyers. My DB (first one in our extended family to go to Uni) is also a teacher but in the middle east so earning a tax free very decent wage.

DD1 is currently doing ALevels and I will be encouraging her to do a degree level apprenticeship as I believe that work experience is really important alongside the learning element.

I think the "soft skills" thing is total bollocks. That just refers to the basics that most people pick up as they leave home anyway at roughly university age. You don't have to saddle yourself with lifetime debt for that. And plenty of people could have a much more "enjoyable and unique experience" spending that much while doing almost anything else. Totally mad to try and sell that amount of debt as a reasonable spend on learning how to heat up baked beans and going to a few parties.

The argument that its a "once in the lifetime opportunity" and "not debt but graduate tax" all sounds a bit brain-washy to me.
It's a compulsory amount you have to pay every month for a very long and extended time period and the majority of people's "amazing" uni experience is simply being self-sufficient and away from home for the first time - at school the message was that ANY degree is better than no degree, so most of us chose a subject we were vaguely interested in without understanding the financial implications.
A lot of the careers that "need" the degree for entry level are simply because degrees are ten a penny now. Its a bit of a self-creating cycle.

This obviously doesn't apply to the law, medicine, engineering folk who need the degree for their roles.

I completely agree. It’s just a money making industry. My son is doing an engineering degree so really needs to go to uni but I don’t have the finances to fund it, so his debt is going to be massive.

Kids are in a Catch 22 situation and companies need to stop demanding unnecessary, generic degrees for jobs as they exacerbate the problem.

Very old fashioned. My brother has a third class degree from a poor University and cannot spell very well and frequently uses incorrect words, "'flounder' the rules" instead of flout a recent one. Sorry to sound a bitch but I'm much brighter and degree less but have worked my way into 2 post grad courses since.

I completely agree with you and it's a huge scam. When I was at university only about 2% or thereabouts went. Now everyone seems to go and you need a degree for admin work.

Many years ago we had apprenticeships where you worked your way up. You could start at a bank and work your way to the top. Some jobs just required training on the job.

Now you seem to need a degree before you can get a foot in the door and you're saddled with ridiculous amounts of debt. Not only that, but the humanities are being phased out.

So from your point of view ( someone who didn’t go to university aside from 1 term) everyone who did was scammed, with the greatest of respect you are not qualified to comment as you didn’t go, therefore you don’t know what it is like to have a degree, I’m extremely glad I went, proud to say that I did Uni, extremely proud of the career and status that I have gained through going to Uni and don’t regret it one bit.
I think if I hadn’t have gone I would have regretted it for the rest of my life.

I really think this post is about you in some way regretting your decision not to go and looking for validation on this forum to say you made the correct decision

I graduated before the big uptick in fees came. Did academic subjects and have had a good career. I still, however, do not have the same lifestyle as my parents did nor do I have the pension benefits. They both retired in their 50s and it is likely I will be working well until my late 60s. While my debt was lower than current grads, the overall lifetime benefit will have been smaller than for my parents generation who could slide easily into jobs with final salary pensions, options for early retirement and comparatively small mortgages.

I would think very hard about going down an academic route if I was doing A levels now. The extra debt is unsustainable.

When DS was at college (2018-2020) we went to one talk about uni that promised better jobs, higher pay, happier people (yes, they really told us that people who go to uni are happier!). We then went to the talk about apprenticeships where they told us virtually the same thing and how employers prefer work experience over degrees 🤷 It's like they didn't think that parents might go to both talks.

Higher education for its own sake is generally valuable for individuals, and an educated population benefits society.

How universities, and university education, are funded is a huge but separate issue.

I agree OP I went to university at a similar time to the years you reference. I left with around £28k of debt. I earned enough to pay a little back for a few years but never more than the rate of interest so it steadily climbed and climbed. I think it’s sitting at over £33k now I’m not sure. Im now a SAHM for a few years and I don’t even know what’s the number is going up to. When I go back to work I don’t think I’ll be on a high enough salary to pay more than a small amount back each month.
I looked into it and I would need to go back full time tomorrow at £60k + salary (which I’ve never even been near) to have a chance of paying it back before I turn 65.

So I don’t think I’ll ever pay it back in full especially since the interest has really mounted up over the years.

I work for a university (so may be part of the scam!) and it's difficult - even at a non-prestigious institution, a degree can transform an individual's prospects. And then for other students, I think it doesn't help them much and it's probably not worth it for them. But I can't tell in advance which student falls into which category - exam results don't give you the answer to that one.

Ideally I would like to see a culture where there is at least a one-year break between finishing school and starting university. Give people a taste of what's out there and let them make an informed choice. That said, DD is set on university (including but not limited to degree apprenticeships) and I'm not going to insist on her taking time out because I can also see how the momentum can help.

See I'm not trying to be argumentative but this gets brought up all the time about bright but lazy or directionless kids who don't get a graduate jobs after university, as though this is proof university is pointless. But in the world where the academically capable but either lazy or uncertain what they want to do with themselves kids aren't pushed to go to uni, would things really be much better for them and society as a whole? Would those kids really be happier and more successful in a trade based or vocational apprenticeship, not saying these aren't a great thing for the people that want to do them but I don't think we should fill up all the plumbing and hairdressing places with kids who may have achieved more on paper in terms of exam results but feel no real desire to do those jobs. And I doubt that they'd suddenly acquire a drive and passion for a particular career just because there wasn't a uni option. I think in reality what would happens to the kids who go into higher education just because they can /for lack of anything better to do, if there wasn't a push for it or even an option, is that they'd drift around fairly aimlessly for years living with their parents and doing minimum wage or low skill work or perhaps not working at all - is it so much worse that for 3 years they have a focus and a sense of purpose and achievement from studying for a degree, even if they still don't have a career or a direction at the end of it? Yes I get the debt thing but overall we fully accept that most kids should stay in education and not enter the workforce proper until 18, is it that much different to accept that for most people it's actually more like 21 or even mid 20s by the time they know what they want to do and are actually skilled and productive to do it and that until then being in some form of education is best?

I think it's ridiculous these days. I went to Uni when it was free to everyone.
My ds has just finished sixth form at a prestigious, specialist performing arts college. He is a very talented Musician and is aiming to make it in the industry. He has a band that is doing very well locally already and works pt to support this. Quite early on in his education, he decided against uni and we fully support this decision. He thought it through long and hard..He doesn't need to learn anymore per se for his chosen career and he didn't want to rack up a huge debt, come out after 2 years and be no further on. He would have wasted that time that he is using to grow the band. He is also getting other opportunities his friends at Uni aren't - learning on the job, being asked to support other bands and he's currently just taken on some promotion work. He said that from almost Day 1, college were pushing Uni as the next option, the expectation was that all students would go. Everyone was made to complete personal statements etc. There was very limited support for those wanting to enter straight into the industry. Many of his friends actually said they were going to Uni because they didn't know what else to do. They will leave Uni with huge debts and sadly, probably no further on career wise. I am glad our son has taken another route and don't think Uni is nor should be the default it once was.

Local housing authority advertising an admin post paying <£24k that requires “a relevant degree”.

TBH I’m sure no degree is needed. Relevant or otherwise! It’s silly.

When did you go?

Think it's only worth doing a degree if it's the only way into a well paid field e.g. doctor, dentist etc. I wouldn't recommend it for basic degrees like philosophy or drama etc. My friend got a degree in the NHS, and ended up working in a shop! She has a mountain of debt to repay! I'm encouraging my children to look at apprenticeships instead.

I come from a family of well-educated people who studied fluffy, abstract subjects and often ended up in self-inflicted poverty. My mother was the first in the family to study physics and then married an engineer. They did not offer me much guidance but they would be mortified if I went for gender studies, social media marketing or a similar "modern" degree.

It's a gamble. Pays off for some, not others. It will definitely do so for my eldest due to the choice of career. I was more worried with the youngest.

However, it is paying off for them too. His friends from A levels went straight into an entry job and 4 tears later, earns almost double than my ds who is only starting now...but, his friends has now no immediate opportunity for pro.otion. My ds, if progressing the same will have those opportunities because of his degree.

However, I do agree that for many, usually those who went ro Uni because they didn't know what else to do and didn't want to start working FT, it's turning out to be an expensive choice with little rewards.