to feel like we were scammed into going to University?

[Schleep]

When I was at school (completed sixth form 2009), if you were academic it was assumed that you'd go to University. The whole thing was pushed incredibly hard on us and, in retrospect, was quite propaganda-like - we had external people come and do loads of assemblies on how amazing Uni Life was, lots and lots of talk about how University would guarantee us high paying jobs and we were repeatedly told to not worry about the debt, the interest rate is practically zero and we'd never even realise the money was coming out.
(Of course, when you're in your teens, debt looks like free money anyway)

Fast forward 10, 15 years later - and all my friends are saddled with huge debts that they'll likely be paying off for the rest of their lives.
A lot of them have had their repayment contracts changed so its no longer written off after a certain time, the payment terms are not as favourable and interest rates have gone up.

I dodged a bullet by being rebellious and dropping out after just 1 term, and that term was just before the fees tripled (at the time, you'd have thought I was ruining my life the way the University/everyone responded.) and I feel incredibly lucky. A degree would not have increased my employability and I have no student debt.
But I have friends and family genuinely upset at the hundreds they're forking out each month for something they didn't want and (at least in their cases) they simply do not use.

I find it baffling that the system was funnelling people out of the workforce, into unnecessary (in many cases) education and saddling people with huge amounts of debt.

Depends what you want to do of course!

But I agree it’s not always the best thing for everyone and needs serious thought.

Things like apprenticeship degrees seem like a great idea.

”The Uni lifestyle” also isn’t for everyone, some people really hate it and are happier working and earning, and enjoying their evenings and weekends all the same. And you do have to study so it’s not “putting off work” in the way people sometimes think.

@peachgreen te ongoing delusion that the student loan isn’t a problem is such a big part of this problem.

Having a huge and growing debt hanging over you is bad enough - but the payments are actually quite significant when you look at your disposable income after housing costs etc.

I’ve got people in my team paying several thousand pounds a year in loan repayments. Most professionals will.

Over a lifetime this will amount to a six figure sum, a huge amount when considered in context of pension savings, a mortgage etc

51% tax rate over £50k - what kind of incentive is that?

I don't think anyone should ever be pushed into going to university. If you're not enjoying the course, it won't serve you well. I know plenty of people who haven't used their degrees because it wasn't their passion. Either they were told to go to university or were just too young and picked something they thought they'd like. Many courses are not what they appear to be. There's usually far more work, research and time needed to complete assignments. You really do have to love the subject.

I went to uni in my late 30s. It was the best thing I've ever done. Not only did it build my confidence, but it shone a light in the direction I wanted to go career-wise. I would've been too young to go to uni at 18. I had no idea what I wanted to do back then.

And, if you want a high flying career, after accumulating tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt you are somehow expected to fund yourself whilst you work unreasonably long hours, for free, to prove you are up to it.

Some industries are no longer expected to pay to train staff to do the jobs they need.

The whole thing is a scam.

It's robbing young people of work experience, future financial security and we have turned education into a business.

I agree OP. I went to sixth form back in the year 2000, knowing that I didn't want to go to Uni, but I had to fight hard against the school's insistence that it was basically the only option.

In the end I got special permission not to attend the weekly sixth form assembly as all they talked about every week for months was Uni and UCAS forms and I wasn't prepared to sit through it weekly when I had no lessons until the afternoon that day!

I don’t necessarily agree. My career wouldn’t be possible without a degree, even those friends who didn’t need a degree are doing very well for themselves and easily paying back the debt.

To follow, I work in an industry where hands on experience coming up through the ranks is much better preparation for management and senior management than anything on paper would be.

I think it was abundantly clear by 2010 that too many people were going to uni. I knew of people who had graduated and couldn't get jobs outside of retail. It influenced my choice when I went to uni in 2012 significantly - chose a degree with a bursary, fees paid and a job at the end.
DH works in admissions for an admittedly not very good uni now and they're desperate for students, accept anyone and most just go into further studying or completely unrelated jobs.

I don't know, I do get the points made on the thread and do have sympathy for people finding themselves in a lot of student debt, but to present the opposing point of view...

I think university was absolutely the right thing to do for me and my siblings even though none of us have 'used' our degrees as such in that we all are now in careers that don't require any specific degree, and I hope my kids will be pushed to go to uni if they're academically capable too. For a start I think higher education is a really worthwhile goal in itself and doesn't for me have to be vocational or intrinsically linked to employment, I wouldn't want to live in a world where a deeper understanding and knowledge of arts/culture, history or science was something only for the very privileged or academics. Plus I am strongly of the belief that even a non vocational degree does give a lot of workplace skills, not just critical thinking and analysis, ability to write, research, present ideas clearly and logically etc but also the 'uni life' experience, I know a lot of people think about it as being just wall to wall partying but for me it's about living away from home, managing your own time, budget etc and yes learning to balance fun times and friends etc with work. I personally think it's far better that kids get the chance to soft transition into adulthood by living away from home but in a relatively safe and supportive environment compared to either having to be chucked into the world of 'proper' work and living alone or in shared housing at 18 (and there is no way I and my siblings or most of my friends were ready for that) or stay living at home for much longer presumably being supported by parents while a career gets off the ground, that sounds fraught with difficulties to me ... Apprenticeships and so on are great options but do just push a lot of the responsibility onto employers and there aren't enough of them to go around if all the unis shut up shop tomorrow, and think of the loss to the UK economy and reputation if there was no or drastically reduced research and academic work going on (which is partially funded by undergraduates at the moment), I think we'd all end up meeting the gap through increased taxation if that was the case...

I think there’s an enormous amount of of people that trot of to uni do tin pot degrees leave with debt and no clear plan what to do

id say it’s a 50/50 for they way it’s goes

our friends kids2 of them extremely successful one already cleared debt and other not far off but they had a very clear plan of what they wanted to do and what they needed to get there
neighbours kids went because I think it was drummed into to go did a subject they liked not particularly revlant to any career they expressed an interest in and are now saddled with debt no idea what they want to do and working minimum wage jobs
tbh think the parents just wanted to. Boast they had a kid at uni

Yep! It was assumed you'd go to University, no discussion of anything else at sixth form and from parents too. It was sold as if you don't go to University you won't be successful which is definitely not true.

I think Blair/Brown were correct in expanding Higher Education - they could see the way the wind was blowing, that other economies across Asia were on the rise and that to compete we'd need a higher proportion of people who had completed tertiary education.

Unfortunately the economic crash in 2008 means that although we have more graduates, wages across the board other than at the very top are incredibly low - we managed to avoid currency collapse, but only because we started printing money. And we haven't stopped since.

Obviously this affects all employees, not just graduates, but graduates because of their sheer numbers don't have the scarcity value of trades. Look at what graduate wages were in 2004 - they are much the same as now, but they're worth 20 years of inflation including three years of close to stagflation less.

But, back in 2009, your teachers, careers advisors etc, could not have predicted such a long slow currency devaluation so they weren't wrong to advise as they did. It just didn't work out the way they thought it would.

I agree OP it was the thing to aspire to and if you didn’t go you were painted negatively. I might still go to uni again but I’d choose something that would be better for the workforce and more lucrative. I think it’s hard to get through to teenagers but I feel there could have been more promotion of more worthwhile degrees while also promoting the idea that you can be successful without one and there are many paths even if you could get into uni doesn’t mean you should or need to.

I think that the cost of going to uni today means that kids place a lot of emphasis on the university experience (might as well if they are going into lots of debt ) rather than the course itself. It’s sold as where academic people go and have a good time.

I have 3 young adult kids and they’ve all picked differently. Dc1 went straight to work. Dc2 went to uni and dc3 is currently doing a college course that leads to a specific career.

I think some 16 year olds like my dc3 need a gap year before taking their next steps. He didn’t know until he was age 17 what he wanted to study next and made the mistake of going into his school sixth form for a year for social reasons which seemed harmless to him. It’s ok doing level 3 qualifications or training if you know what you want to do but I know that it’s not unusual to know your strengths/interests but not know what to do.

You were pushed to uni because leavers destinations help create a reputation for the school. It makes them look like good places for future pupils to go to (especially if it’s a comp)

I don’t think that any government or school is going to be brave enough to admit that uni is really for people in certain subjects who need it for next steps (healthcare, lawyers, engineers, future academics…) especially in the current situation where many believe that too many visas are being issued to overseas students.

Yes, it was plenty fun but I have never used my degree. Instead I earn well working in a career using a diploma I studied for after university. Thankfully I live in Scotland so I have no debts to pay off for it.

DC3, the brightest of our DCs in terms of examination results, refused point blank to go to university.

She now out earns her siblings and is the only own to own her own home.

I won't be directing my kids towards uni. I mean I had a great time but my degree has fuck all to do with what I do. I paid off my loan by age 35.

my 26 year old son was saying this only last week. He got a 1st in Maths and Finance in 2019 then worked for 3 years in an unrelated role (as the City had shut down due to Covid) before doing a Masters in Data Science (distinction) 2023 before getting a role in a start up company. Got made redundant last Sept but can't find a job anywhere as they all want experience which he can't get without a job. Wishes he hadn't gone to Uni.

Definitely - and young people still are steered in that direction when lots of them shouldn't be.

I was one of the people who was more academic, but never wanted to follow that path. I always knew what I wanted to do, and that was build up my own business - which I did, when I graduated.

I had an absolutely amazing time at uni so I can't regret going, as I enjoyed my course and made some fantastic friends. But as far as my career goes, it's done me absolutely no good whatsoever.

DP and I have been discussing this. I graduated in the early 2000s. Due to repayment thresholds and pt work I still owe money to the student loan company.

DP left school at 16, bummed round the world for 10 years and then worked his way up with his employer and earns more than me.

Combined we have a household income of £100k so will be expected to give dcs a lot of financial help for uni. I'm tempted to just give them the cash we are saving at 18, tell them to have a gap year then do an apprenticeship when they are 19. The level of debt required is just insane now and I look at girls I was at school with who had kids as teenagers, have council houses, who have low stress jobs and from what they post on social media have a nice life and sometimes think they were the astute ones.

I'm professionally financially literate and have watched the rebranding of Uni cost repayments as a "Graduate Tax" over recent years with a particular interest.

If going to Uni to obtain a degree aimed at securing a chosen career path, which just happens to be more highly paid than the average, results in taxation at a higher level, one should still sit down and do the sums with a projected earnings path from graduation to potential retirement date to see what the net benefit will be. Many of the higher paid careers come with much higher stress levels than averagely paid jobs/careers. The higher pay ought to sufficiently compensate for the additional responsibility and stress. The latest repayment plan has further eroded that compensation.

Degree value has been eroded and now degree benefit has too.

I blame Tony Blair. But then I blame him for most things 😆
Neither DH or I went to university, and that was in the days of grants and the dole during holidays. Both of us could have gone but, living in London at that time, there was no way I was moving to some grotty provincial town (that's how I looked at it 🤷‍♀️), I was already busy going out

It's such an interesting topic. I just don't think a lot of eighteen/nineteen year olds have the financial sophistication to understand what they're signing up to, and the consequences that will follow them for the rest of their life (probably). I also think it's going to be interesting to see what happens to university uptake as the children of the first generation of fee-payers reaches 18. I think it's going to fall through the floor. I'd steer my children away from university unless they're going to do a degree that will properly enhance their career and earning potential. I'm also interested to see what happens to the government maths when that first generation hits the debt write off point and it becomes clear that a huge number of people will never pay the debt back anyway.

For the majority of people, university is a scam. I certainly wouldn't go.

I worry about this attitude. On what basis? Graduates still out earn non graduates even if the gap has shrunk.

No, we shouldn't be ushing everyone to HE or selling pipedreams.

But pretending that it's some elitist conspiracy or scam is wildly unhelpful and punishes the young people who can't get advice from a broad range of perspectives.

Older person here - went to university in the 1980's when it was all free. I feel very privileged, and at the same time it's important to note that in those days, fewer people went to university, so the chances of getting a good job were that much higher, whatever degree you did.

I did an arts degree and it expanded my mind, and social connections (I was from a working class background and attended a Russell group university), and I'm very grateful for that. In fact, I went back to university in the late 90's and paid my way to do an MA, which I couldn't have done without the kickstart that my first degree gave to my career.

Would I do the same now? Absolutely not. No way would I saddle myself with all that debt with no guarantee of a high salary at the end of it, unless I wanted to be a lawyer or doctor.

Unfortunately, a lot of young people who are academically gifted will probably miss out, either by not going, or by choosing a course that is more likely to lead to a higher salary, rather than what they are really interested in. For the rest, they may well have been better off starting work earlier, or, in some cases, going down the apprenticeship route to learn a technical job or trade. There should be more vocational courses and apprenticeships IMO, and fewer people funnelled into university.