to feel like we were scammed into going to University?

[Schleep]

When I was at school (completed sixth form 2009), if you were academic it was assumed that you'd go to University. The whole thing was pushed incredibly hard on us and, in retrospect, was quite propaganda-like - we had external people come and do loads of assemblies on how amazing Uni Life was, lots and lots of talk about how University would guarantee us high paying jobs and we were repeatedly told to not worry about the debt, the interest rate is practically zero and we'd never even realise the money was coming out.
(Of course, when you're in your teens, debt looks like free money anyway)

Fast forward 10, 15 years later - and all my friends are saddled with huge debts that they'll likely be paying off for the rest of their lives.
A lot of them have had their repayment contracts changed so its no longer written off after a certain time, the payment terms are not as favourable and interest rates have gone up.

I dodged a bullet by being rebellious and dropping out after just 1 term, and that term was just before the fees tripled (at the time, you'd have thought I was ruining my life the way the University/everyone responded.) and I feel incredibly lucky. A degree would not have increased my employability and I have no student debt.
But I have friends and family genuinely upset at the hundreds they're forking out each month for something they didn't want and (at least in their cases) they simply do not use.

I find it baffling that the system was funnelling people out of the workforce, into unnecessary (in many cases) education and saddling people with huge amounts of debt.

I agree. I'm now in a construction related job and still paying off a student loan which was a waste of time (hated office work) and trades jobs make on average £10k more than graduate jobs. There are loads of not so smart people out there with largely useless degrees.

I went to uni in the early 2000, no fees (means tested and my parents didn't earn enough) just maintenance loans totaling £14k. Degree in Biology and I'm now a teacher so degree was relevant. First and only one in my extended family to go to Uni and to 'have a career'. Moving away from home at 19 was the best thing I ever did as I'm from a deprived working (mainly not ) class northern town. Broadening my horizons and opening doors that I would never have managed to at home. I never returned.
I repaid my loans within 15 years but I'm the only one of my friends who have.
Dh never went to uni but does work at one now. He earns the same as all of his colleagues who did and at 30 was the only one who owned a home.
We will not be encouraging our kids to go unless the degree is vital for a career. Yes, uni changed my life but I do think it was I was able to gain more opportunities by leaving home rather than the education.

Totally agree. The only thing I liked at school was woodwork. However I was also accidentally academic and got good grades. I went to a grammar school too so really didn't think there was any option but to go to uni. Now I'm pretty broke, in debt and stuck in a tiny house with 3 kids. I wish so much I'd become a carpenter or joiner. Could have bloody built myself a better house.

I do agree that bright kids aren’t encouraged to really interrogate whether they want to go to uni, and want to go straight from school.

But do you think is it student debt, or having three kids that has the most impact on your month to month finances, and ability to afford a larger house?

I'm an 08 school leaver and as much as I loved my time at uni, I agree. I needn't have gone. It was more that I didn't know what to do and as an academic child I think I just drifted that way. My private school certainly reinforced it. Everyone from my year went. I left still not knowing what to do with myself, with mediocre results and then leaving a PGCE which I hated but am still partly paying for. I also gained a huge inferiority complex from all of it. It took me ages to find something I'd like to do in life. Now I have end goals and my ambition and purpose have reignited- but I still feel I'm making up for a lot.

My degree ticks boxes but isn't necessary for my current role although it may yet pay off if I climb. I certainly don't think the education or life experience was a waste and it's still useful to have on paper but without a goal for my time there, I do feel slightly ambivalent about whether I needed to be there. I also really regret listening to my mother, who relentlessly squashed and jeered any talk of going into law- my one gut feeling interest, out of me. Her reasoning was that we don't know anyone in law so I'd never make any money at it. Not necessarily completely wrong but it made me feel doomed and scared to try. I suspect this contributed greatly to my "drift". I'm now at an age where I could retrain I suppose, but I'm also at an age and stage where paying ££££ for something, becoming even more time poor than I already am and possibly the gamble not paying off and going back to the bottom of the pay and respect scale don't appeal.

DH for different reasons also wishes he'd never gone to uni. We've agreed that whilst we'd never stop a child going or deride it as an option, we will stress that it's not for everyone and is probably best explored only if you've got a vocation that really requires a degree. Other options exist, are valid and may suit better.

There are hardly any other options for bright DC. Degree apprenticeships are like hens teeth for 18 year olds. Around 10,000 get them and that’s a huge increase from 5 years ago. 350,000 go to uni. Unless we make serious inroads into alternative HE we will have disappointed grads.

Looking at the woes above, always have a go at something. We had no knowledge of law, but DD1 converted to law. Don’t wait until you have 3 kids and then decide your degree was a mistake. Parents don’t know everything!

@TizerorFizz it's also the time and money now. It would've been nice but to start again is to start at the bottom. A friend who currently burnt out in her career has said the same of retraining at anything. I'm also happy with who I am now. Nothing to prove and other challenges I can set myself if I do want prove anything.

I actually looked into ILEX when I decided a PGCE wasn't for me as this seemed like a good starting point for a late-ish entry to law. I decided to be bold and try law after all and try for a career perhaps more suited to me (after teaching wasn't, long story as to how I ended up doing it) and just go for it, after all, I'd already made a career mistake, why not just try. This seemed a good starting point. However, I was then treated so contemptuously by the woman on the ILEX advice line (probably shouldn't have called when the pgce wounds were still raw and my self belief at -1 but I was trying to pick my life up).

This lady basically implied I was already quitter (and thus a failure) and what was to stop me doing it again. Her tone and just the things she said to me were so derisive I burst into tears. She changed tune very quickly after that, trying to be nice, but the damage was done and I worried that my reputation would precede me, that I was a joke and would never have a decent job. Perhaps I proved her point in not trying for ILEX but it remains the cruelest thing anyone has ever said to me. Bad timing probably but it certainly made me very risk adverse / closed down and unambitious for a time - why put myself up as target- and I'm shaking remembering that call. Looking back I can see her concern, I understand why she mentioned it, but the way she put it - she needn't have said it like that.

I've never let anyone treat me like that again but I had to wait for my self confidence to bounce back and until I felt I looked better on paper, I was concerned that others would share her perception of me and treat me accordingly. Feeling washed up at 22 is very lonely and frightening and embarrassing. I was probably just too hurt and too young and uncertain and unestablished to brush it off.

People were perhaps scammed into voting conservative in2010 when they said they would increase fees by Dave Cameron's hug a husky etc. People were definitely scammed into voting Brexit.

Private schools are detrimental and a scam

Some people don't have the skillset for practical jobs so still worth doing a degree even if less well paid.

Agree people don't see the other side of the cost

For all the students who will be paying off their student loans for the next 30 years/rest of their working lives, often more than they actually got, there will be hundreds of thousands who never pay anything off/barely anything because they don't earn enough.

I have a friend who didn't earn enough to hit the threshold for the first 5 years after graduating. Then she got pregnant and went part time, and has since had another 2 kids. She's planning to stay part time until all three go to primary school if possible, at which point she'll be nearly 20 years past graduation. Even if she does go back full time at that point it will be unlikely to be into an incredibly well paid job, and of course the repayment thresholds will have gone up again then, so even if she does hit it, she won't repay a tenth of whatever the total amount will be (given the interest has continued to accrue over this time) until it's written off after 30 years.

There will be other people who never work at all or only work intermittently etc.in the same boat.

This is why the interest rates are what they are. We’ve had far too many getting nowhere near paying anything off. I think it’s been less than 50%. The new loan system should bring it nearer to 80% but - this will be at the expense of those paying over 40 years. Women affected more than men. It is now vital dc recognise that not all degrees are equal and that the subject needs careful consideration. If courses snd universities contract, they should. However the middle sector needs more buoyancy.

I pay off about 300 a month at the moment
I owe more on my plan 1 loan than I did when I graduated, almost 15 years ago.

that doesn’t make any sense. clearly your further education was not in economics, business or finance?

@PrincessBing I wrote myself off at 16. I know the feeling! I was 32 before I got professionally qualified in anything. After 7 years of part time study and working. At 25 my employer backed me by allowing me to study part time but it took a lot of effort from me to get them to agree to that and I had to pay the fees! I didn’t realise it at the time but a degree would have been easier but I needed to earn. Being poor didn’t suit me.

@Riverswims For anyone who went to university 15 years ago, of course it’s a tax. It’s not worth thinking about interest because it wasn’t a bank loan. DD started university in 2010 and paid it off 2 years ago. You have to consider if you would have got your job without the degree and whether you earn a premium due to the degree and your job. If you didn’t need the degree why are you doing that job? If you did, it’s helped you and there’s a cost. The cost though isn’t for 40 years. Maybe you could have earned more by being an electrician - so what consideration did you give to a career?

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (havnt read the whole thread) but there are many people, myself included, for whom going away to university was a way to escape an abusive home. I wasn't bothered about studying although I had good grades, for me it was the chance to go to the other side of the country and never go home again. I wouldn't have been able to escape otherwise.

I have never needed my degree for my career, graduated in 2005 and paid off my debt in 2019. I do agree that the mass push of young people to uni feels like a scam. But for me it was the best decision I ever made.

Not at all. Ive been to uni a few times and have quite a bit in tuition fees and loans. I don't notice it though, I get a small repayment taken out of my wages every month. Had an absolute ball at uni, learnt loads and have some amazing memories. When I die my loans get written off, I don't see it as debt, more like a tax. I'll never pay it off and I don't care.

@TrixieFatell Before you die if they are uk loans!

I have a percentage come off my salary every month and I will do for the rest of my working life because I don't earn enough to pay the loan off ever. The loan isn't taken into account with anything like credit score. What difference does it make whether I owe £13000 or £30000 or £1000000? In that sense it functions like a tax, not a debt.

@Wholeboxoftissues You won’t. You do not have to pay the loan off. You can work and pay £0 every month if you are on a low salary. Many part time workers don’t pay anything. The latest loan agreement lasts for 40 years but yours isn’t, I assume, one of these. So it will be written off.

It was a reasonably progressive tax but the longer term now works against lower earners. Therefore young people really must do a cost/benefit analysis. Years ago a good degree gave a very decent earnings premium now it’s below 10%. So do the costs outweigh the benefit? Young people must look at what degree and where it’s from vs other HE study or working. 20% of degree holders don’t do degree level work. So they might well have been better off not doing the degree. Often art and theatre degrees.