to feel like we were scammed into going to University?

[Schleep]

When I was at school (completed sixth form 2009), if you were academic it was assumed that you'd go to University. The whole thing was pushed incredibly hard on us and, in retrospect, was quite propaganda-like - we had external people come and do loads of assemblies on how amazing Uni Life was, lots and lots of talk about how University would guarantee us high paying jobs and we were repeatedly told to not worry about the debt, the interest rate is practically zero and we'd never even realise the money was coming out.
(Of course, when you're in your teens, debt looks like free money anyway)

Fast forward 10, 15 years later - and all my friends are saddled with huge debts that they'll likely be paying off for the rest of their lives.
A lot of them have had their repayment contracts changed so its no longer written off after a certain time, the payment terms are not as favourable and interest rates have gone up.

I dodged a bullet by being rebellious and dropping out after just 1 term, and that term was just before the fees tripled (at the time, you'd have thought I was ruining my life the way the University/everyone responded.) and I feel incredibly lucky. A degree would not have increased my employability and I have no student debt.
But I have friends and family genuinely upset at the hundreds they're forking out each month for something they didn't want and (at least in their cases) they simply do not use.

I find it baffling that the system was funnelling people out of the workforce, into unnecessary (in many cases) education and saddling people with huge amounts of debt.

So did a lot of the illiterate, poverty stricken dysfunctional homeless men and women who use the overnight shelter I volunteer at...

What do you do now, OP?
I went to Uni, and that paved way to a long career in IT. I’m in a senior leadership role and others at my level and above all have degrees. Some have masters and PhD too.

Eh? What a stupid post. Completely different points. My point is that you could be well educated in the past without “going to university”, and many we’re. Nothing to do with the illiterate people you meet in your job. They would not have gone to university even now. 🙄.

Strangely op my view is completely different. I went to a really poor comp in the 80s, most left at 16 in 1985. I know of only one who went to uni at 18. We didn't have any encouragement to go to uni, several of my year got degrees later, several should have been pushed to go (not me I was too lazy and home life would have made it impossible).

It's also what degree you did. I was in management in an insurance company and did the 3 month review of a new starter, who stated she should have been on 33% more wages "by now...I've got a degree". I mentioned that graduate scheme and the possibility of me talking to management and asked what her degree was in. "Dance". I pissed myself.

I think that part of the issue is taking degrees that don't fundamentally offer that much to an employer. Plus having the attitude that a degree is a golden ticket and no further work is required...it was this last issue that really got to me...you can't expect to manage the company if you haven't got a clue how it works, how to manage others and how business works. That takes years of actual experience not months.

This is just too much of a generalisation.

It is absolutely worth going to university to study some degrees, even if they don't lead directly to a job. Fine Art, History, English Literature......all of those sort academic subjects don't lead directly to a job but are still well worth doing.

I have a job that I couldn't do without a degree (STEM subject so actually need a degree to attain professional status). But much more than that university was my passport OUT!

I had a difficult childhood, single parent out of work and struggling on benefits, first person in my family to go to university, no real prospects for a secure long term job where I grew up. Going to university exposed me to the rest of the world, people/jobs/things I'd never even heard of and didn't know where available to me.

The only thing I regret is that academic subjects were pushed. I really wish I'd done a degree in nursing as it would have suited my personality much better but that's a small aside. For some people university is a massive opportunity not just for learning.

We are the same age OP and I have always felt this way. I always say by going to uni all I did was spent £30k on some new friends.

At my sixth form like you say if you were vaguely academic it felt like you were given no alternative but to go to uni, like it was your only option. I did an arts degree that has no relevance or use to my life whatsoever and so wish I had gone straight into work at 18 or done something practical - I am training as a children’s social worker now but something like that was never even brought up as an option.

You are supposed to have a trajectory for your life figured out at 16? Madness. I will be making sure my DC know of the wide range of careers they could go into not all of which involve uni and support them whatever they choose to do.

@AllyDally

Accountancy? You don't need a degree, quicker to go via AAT then professional exams, you have to do the professional exams after a degree anyway. You also get no work experience doing a degree, I would take AAT qualified over a degree every day when I employ my staff as they generally have 3 years accounting/bookkeeping work experience by that point
But you aren't going to get into one of the big accountancy firms this way I wouldn't think.
And how would you even get the job you are doing whilst studying without any qualifications?

Yes you can, you have to have professional exams which are higher than a degree.

AAT is starting point, you can get apprenticeships, entry level roles when starting it. I take people on all the time. You would have to have basic qualifications, so maths and English GCSE, usually 5 in total above a 4, some start their AAT after A levels. Most I get have high GCSE grades and fly through the early exams.

Depends what you consider high salary also I guess. In the real world that's £50/60k upwards (outside of london) in MN world that's £300k.

It's just my experience, it's not the same for everyone.

The point of education is to make one a critical thinker and to enhance your life. At least this was the ideal in the mid-twentieth century (based on Plato, I think). Previous to that, education was always about a job - which is why Kit Marlowe hared off to Cambridge (he could train to be a vicar - though he didn't).
Education, though, is partly to open horizons and widen experience by giving pupils/students a knowledge-base with which to think, and university should expand a specific knowledge base. It is also about getting a job and earning a living, which also requires a knowledge base. The carpenter learning how to saw wood, construct a floor etc is not learning a 'skill' he is acquiring the knowledge of how to do that - the skill bit is how well he uses his knowledge.
University can provide a path to a job. But so can a trade apprenticeship. Both are valid. I think the plethora of degrees in not very useful subjects is sad. I also think it sad that the past and current governments thought/think that only subjects that lead to a high-earning job or are STEM subjects are worth studying, and wish to defund e.g. arts and humanities degrees - notwithstanding a society cannot exist without the humanities and arts, which are the substance beneath the economic and technical infrastructure - and also, both earn the UK a shedload of money and are significant parts of the economy.

I love Uni and have a job that is linked to my degree. I wouldn't earn as much without it. I also made friends for life. I went to uni in 1998 though, so over a decade before you. With the current costs of uni, it makes me think twice about encouraging my children to go.

It's the test result which is statistically-significant or not, not the sample size.

You're probably right in practical terms that the statistical power would be too low to run the test with a reasonably low risk of a Type II error. But in principle you only need two observations for a paired t-test, for example.

@3oldladiesstuckinalavatory

I can remember in the late 1960s a lad in our road on a council estate getting into
University. Every one was buzzing because back then it was a great achievement as not many went and only the best went . Certainly not many from our background. Back then going to University was a golden ticket to a golden future

Uni was brilliant for me. I will never ever regret my time there. Opened so many doors for me and met such brilliant people. 3 years of absolute laughs as well!

Why is the interest rate on student loans (specifically Plan 2) SUBSTANTIALLY higher than average mortgage rates if not for pure profiteering?

And people encouraged 17-18 year olds to make this financial decision without any real pushback or even "back of a fag packet" calculations.

The only people who benefit from a Plan 2 loan are those who were never going to earn a lot and went into uni just to put off work or have a fun experience.

It's really discouraging to essentially pay more only because you work hard. I'll never clear mine off despite paying it twice over if I stay on my current high-ish salary for the next 30 years. Let that sink in.

I couldn't do my job without a degree. Earn ok and enjoy it. Well woth going to uni for me!

@InDogweRust I think Theresa large element of that involved- 18 year olds don't always think logically and plenty think they will get access to cash, tons of fun and piss ups and no parents checking on them. It's not the course for plenty of them, ( not all of course) it's the lifestyle .

I actually admire my 17 year old who ditched A levels , got a really nice local apprenticeship in networks and IT and was in a shared house ( mix of students and professionals) two weeks before he was18 - He got the fun lifestyle, whilst still learning and earning

I had similar experience, but I do wonder, from talking to friends with older kids, if the social side of it isn't much less of "a thing" now. So many seem to go home all the time or commute. I get the reasons but I think university as one of life's few opportunities to really "jump the tracks" as I did isn't what it was.

It’s all about ambition though. We opened kits of new unis in the 60s plus the polytechnics. It opened up the possibility of uni. Many went who would not have had a chance before. By 1970 it was around 8% and now we are pushing 38%. We need a halfway house! Colleges of HE and the polys used to provide this. Now they are unis. We need a rethink. We don’t need 100 unis offering English and History. We don’t need the volumes of students we have. We do need courses for bright enough 18 year olds that are allied to careers. Then move to a degree afterwards if necessary.

The big accountancy firms take most with degrees. In the rest of the sector, there are options. However plenty of firms want the brightest and best but they don’t get them from former colleges of HE.

There are plenty of jobs that require a degree, uni isn't a waste of time at all then. I just don't agree with going for the 'experience' if you have no clue what you want to do.

I think many people need to get away from thinking it's a failure if you don't go to Uni. There are so many options out there that suit people better and also are better for those specific roles.

Its great she is doing well and maybe she will never need that degree but DH is in IT and he says that beyond a certain point you won't be considered for jobs without one
You might be capable and have experience but without the degree your CV won't even make the first sift
Unfair and short sighted but its how it is

That's definitely my experience. I work in IT and even if the company I'm employed for directly aren't bothered about a degree, because it's a consultancy, end clients often want to see evidence of qualifications of the people they're paying. It's stupid, as my degree bears absolutely no relevance to what I do now, but that's how it is.

Why not just teach critical thinking as part of english in schools then (for those whose parents don't automatically do this anyway)? Alternatively have a cynical mind and believe nothing like I have/do.

I didn't need a degree. Went to uni at 31 purely for the course I did. The outcome was irrelevant to the career.

Very interesting thread. I just don't feel that in a world where there is so much information easily-available that people can say they were 'scammed'.

Something which is worthwhile on average might not be right for an individual; but that doesn't mean they were scammed - just made a choice that turned out not to be right for them.

Marriage tends to be good for health and wellbeing, but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone, or that a particular marriage is a good idea. Running doesn't work for me but it's clearly good for health, on average.

We have agency and we have to take personal responsibility for our choices. Choosing one thing means giving up other things, and human beings make mistakes. It's just life.