To feel everyone is anti trans?

[Kitjo]

I'm well aware of current US views led by Trump - but are these views generally held/supported in the UK? Of course I understand opinions on NHS gender reassignment funding, as well as controversies over trans women in sport. Needless to say I'm fully aware of concerns over women's safety issues. Are there any sympathisers or supporters out there? What about trans masculine folk who are surely no threat to women's safety or sport? None of these people would choose such a hard life, socially, financially, physically, mentally, emotionally... am I alone in thinking a bit of kindness and compassion towards the trans community might be appreciated for the massive personal struggles they have to face? I am open minded to hearing and understanding your views.

As a trans person, I don't think everyone is anti trans at all. I've been out publicly for over 6 years and have been on the receiving end of transphobia once. But I guess it depends on what you view as transphobia. Not everyone has been 100% supportive and accepting, but does that really make them transphobic? I look like a short, fat woman with a beard. Is it really transphobia if someone sees me as a short, fat woman with a beard?

I think most people just want to live their lives, and it's when certain trans "rights" get in the way of their lives being safe, or it concerns their children that it becomes an issue.

I am pro trans in almost every way.

But I do not think that people with male bodies should be competing in sport with people with female bodies; I also do not think people with penises should be in places with vulnerable women, partly because out of sensitivity to the feelings of some women who have been sexually assaulted and partly because of the actions of a small minority of predators.

I'm personally very happy otherwise to treat trans people as whatever sex they want to live their life as.

And whose fault is that? Those who tell us women we "don't have the right" to single sex spaces (as I've been told many times by men and trans activists). The threats to rape us, telling us to kill ourselves, we should die in a grease fire, raped until our uterus ruptures and bleeds (on a discussion about only women having periods) be skinned alive - ALL by trans people and trans activists. And they WONDER WHY we don't want these violent, dangerous people in our spaces.

Do you really believe that all this wouldn't make feminists angry?!???

Really? This pushback didn't come from nowhere.....

Pro woman does not equal anti trans.

Unfortunately sex can't be changed no matter how much anyone wants to.

The truth is, Stonewall and its American equivalents couldn't have done more damage to the trans community if they'd set out with that intention.

It was never workable to demand that everyone adopt a particular view of the world which has no science behind it and which no-one actually believes - not even the people who claim they do. Read any piece written by someone trying to use the "correct" language and at some point it will invariably reveal that the author knows what sex is. It's why they end up using phrases like "men and birthing people" because they don't actually understand the thing they're supposed to believe.

What are they up against? Everyone here has said they would be polite and nice to a trans person they care across in daily life. No one has suggested they can’t be themselves . I have worked with a ftm trans person recently and I didn’t treat them any differently to any other colleague. Sounds pretty ‘kind’ to me . (Cringe!)

we just don’t want them in their single sex spaces pretty much and just want a distinction between biological reality and societal presentation. That pretty much has been the entire tone of people’s comments .

can you explain what is wrong with that position?

Then it’s a long time since you checked.

For me, ordinary trans people are being persecuted, because people are more sick of the non-binary / self identified people making such a loud fuss.

This is where I would put my line in the sand:

Trans - absolutely understand this and support anyone who feels they are living in the wrong body to make the change. They should be able to undergo whatever treatment they desire. However I think it's reasonable to only start this at an age like 16 (with parental consent) - 18 (without consent) and to adhere to this timeframe the NHS should be aware at 13-14 in order to allow enough time to support this person in making sure this is absolutely what they want to do by means of counselling.

Should the transition be covered by NHS funding? Genitals and hormone tablets - Yes. Breast removal/enhancements - No.
Ongoing therapy/support - Yes.

Lines in the sand:
Don't say you're non binary then become absolutely fucking livid when you can't use a female bathroom when you are clearly a male or vice versa.
Don't teach children about non binary/trans ideas until they are in year 6 and we need to be really careful about the message. For example- young girls coming out of school saying they're non-binary because the teacher said "some girls who like male things like football and wearing trousers might be identified as male".
Don't expect stupid changes to literature like "chestfeeding".
Don't expect everyone to start doing things like adding She/Her to their emails.
Unless your Penis is removed, you are not allowed in female only areas like bathrooms and changing rooms and prisons. This is about safety ffs.
Sports- Unless born that gender you can't compete in that gendered sport.

For the general public - be fucking respectful and don't mock anyone, full stop. Whatever they want to identify as, just let them do them and mind your business unless it's directly affecting you! Speak up respectfully and don't let people like trump and musk lead you down a path of right-wing outrage - you can be better than that!

I've had to examine my own feelings about this more than once in recent years. I've asked myself if I am transphobic and taken literally, no, of course not. I have no fear of trans people per se. But am I anti-trans? I sometimes wonder.

I don't believe I am, but I do feel protective and territorial of biological women. I am anti- the whole trans ideology or movement that's swept through western culture in recent years and brainwashed so many young people. I am anti-whatever this current trend or fashion is, for so many young people to feel this burning need to over-complicate the simple fact of being a man or a woman, straight, gay or bi, and to to declare themselves trans, gender-queer or non-binary or whatever. I know there have always been a small cohort of people with genuine gender dysmorphia and there always will be, but this is on another level. It's like a mass cult.

It's nothing more than the bandwagon of the moment, like so many before it for and for that reason I am against it being taken far too seriously in ways that seep into the law, into education, into healthcare and all our workplaces, and most of all into medical intervention for confused and often vulnerable young people who are just latching onto an identity tribe in that way that teenagers so often have done throughout the few generations.

I have so much more I want to say about this, it's a complex and many layered issue. But my post was turning into a small essay with no end in sight, so I just deleted three quarters of it or it would be too long to read anyway. I think you get the gist.

Please define what anti trans is in your opinion. Are people allowed to be respectful but differ in opinion to you or is that deemed anti trans?

A HUMAN CANNOT CHANGE SEX. A HUMAN BEING CANNOT CHANGE SEX
A HUMAN CANNOT CHANGE SEX. A HUMAN BEING CANNOT CHANGE SEX
A HUMAN CANNOT CHANGE SEX. A HUMAN BEING CANNOT CHANGE SEX
A HUMAN CANNOT CHANGE SEX. A HUMAN BEING CANNOT CHANGE SEX
A HUMAN CANNOT CHANGE SEX. A HUMAN BEING CANNOT CHANGE SEX
A HUMAN CANNOT CHANGE SEX. A HUMAN BEING CANNOT CHANGE SEX
A HUMAN CANNOT CHANGE SEX. A HUMAN BEING CANNOT CHANGE SEX

Ad infinitum....

I agree with this and with most other comments here. I feel for anyone with mental health problems, but pretending to believe in someone’s delusions is not helpful. I totally oppose efforts to ‘validate’ transgenderism by encouraging children to believe they were born in the wrong body. Changing language and legal documents to reflect unreality is just insane.

Ah, you haven't seen the extreme fetish gear and behaviour at Pride then. Lucky you.

Quite.

And pursuing this they undermined public trust to an unimaginable degree and have managed to undo decades of hard work.

They deserve a slow handclap for their efforts.

Not sure how I'm supposed to accept people that are unable to accept themselves.

I don't wish anyone any harm but just leave me out of it.

When people use the word "bigot" I somehow become completely deaf to everything they say thereafter, it's the strangest thing.

I think once you look at RL not on-line it's very different.

Even in my backwater Trans people wander round streets get on buses and train unmolested and pretty much ignored - which is often more than teen girls get.

There are laws that give work protection - and Uni DH worked at and schools my kids have gone to I know bend over backwards to accommodate.

My issues are were activist have tried to errored women's rights and eroded a lot of good will. When it's daughter competing against men who gone though puberty it's not a little thing - it's massively unfair - when it's your women only swim or something canceled it matters to you. I think rape victims and old ladies, young girls and in fact any women should be able to change or go to toilets without having to deal with predatory men using trans as cover to be predatory men - that's a matter of safety and comes before feelings.

I feel so many concerns expressed about women rights safety and even concerns science and medicine on trans isn't as good as it should be - have been shouted down by activists for way to long - and people in power are slowly realising these activists are often a small vocal minority with limited voting and spending money who often don't know as much about the issues as they expect.

I don't care what you do in the privacy of your own life. You can decide that you are no longer Bob and are now Barbera. You can wear dresses, curl your long hair, wear makeup and introduce yourself as Barbera and I will happily address you as such (and same if you are transitioning the other way). Personally if you are wearing a dress and calling yourself Barbera full time I wouldn't have an issue with you using the ladies toilets.

However I don't think you can keep your beard and carry on being called Bob and still claim to need to use the ladies. I also don't think you can compete in a woman's 100meter race no matter what you wear or what you call yourself.

Basically if you want to be referred to a as a gender different to your chromosomal gender then I am good to go along with it as long as it doesn't disadvantage folks who are chromasomally of that gender.

The only thing being that the empirical evidence indicates that gender identity inclusive public accommodation does not result in any increased harms to women, as evidenced in a matched localities study in the US.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

"Legislation, regulations, litigation, and ballot propositions affecting public restroom access for transgender people increased drastically in the last three years. Opponents of gender identity inclusive public accommodations nondiscrimination laws often cite fear of safety and privacy violations in public restrooms if such laws are passed, while proponents argue that such laws are needed to protect transgender people and concerns regarding safety and privacy violations are unfounded. No empirical evidence has been gathered to test such laws’ effects. This study presents findings from matched pairs analyses of localities in Massachusetts with and without gender identity inclusive public accommodation nondiscrimination ordinances. Data come from public record requests of criminal incident reports related to assault, sex crimes, and voyeurism in public restrooms, locker rooms, and dressing rooms to measure safety and privacy violations in these spaces. This study finds that the passage of such laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in these spaces. Additionally, the study finds that reports of privacy and safety violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded."

I'm certain it isn't.

People in the UK are generally fair minded and Mumsnet (and online in general) doesn't reflect that.

Online gives a platform to people with fringe, bigoted, racist, homophobic views who otherwise would never get their voice heard. And being behind a screen these individuals become "brave". This (and social media) is one of the downsides to the internet

That thread last week about the young trans girl in London who was attacked with a knife by after not revealing her status to the boy she was intimate with, I was one of the few who was defending that poor girl after what she went through, but on here "he" was labelled a sexual predator. Had this topic been brought up in a cafe or a hairdressers the views would have been very different and much more reflective of British society.

Males in female only safe single sex spaces affects every single female.

Males who take one female's sports place, award, scholarship - affects many women and girls and the flow on affect.

Saying it doesn't impact the day to day life of women and girls is deeply ignorant and ill-informed.

Not me. Very much a trans ally as is everyone I know. Literally don’t see any of this anti-trans sentiment in my friend groups (probably because I have lots of trans friends). But I don’t get pulled into people’s echo chambers spouting off on stuff they don’t really know anything about.

I want to add to my earlier post that respect goes both ways.

And I do genuinely feel uncomfortable that someone can call themselves a woman without them having experienced menstruation, pregnancy, breast~feeding, menopause, sexual discrimination, fear of physical attack, judgements about weight and appearance, judgements about parenting and motherhood, different socialisation and societal expectations in terms of friendshiip, family and career , to name just a few examples, and everything else that encompasses the definition of “woman”.

That does feel disrespectful to me as does the “parody” of womanhood that some transwomen adopt in terms of their hair and makeup and clothing which cherry picks (inaccurately) the superficial bits of womanhood that appeal to them eg lacy fabrics and high heel shoes whilst ignoring everything else. (I realise that’s a crass simplification for the purposes of this point.)

If that qualifies me as being anti-trans then so be it but it is more a case of feeling that the transperson in those cases are not respecting themselves or other women.

I take the point of a pp though that not every transpersonen is the same. And that many younger transpeople do not fall in to the above category.

For young transpeople, I simply wish that they could feel happier in their own minds and bodies without taking strong medication or resorting to surgery; both of which seems harmful to me. Does that mean I am anti-trans? To be concerned about their health and happiness?

and people in power are slowly realising these activists are often a small vocal minority with limited voting and spending money who often don't know as much about the issues as they expect.

This is a really important point here. People have confused activists with experts.